fryguy
Veteran
SO, did this get signed off into law? As I understand it, the test is at a right angle to the sled, 50 feet away at 4400 rpm. I think my RX1 will pass 
test
the law's (which is in place already) new revision and clarification is still in commitee...I doubt it will actually pass...
the test is at a right angle...18" off the ground....sled rev'd to 4000 rpms...78dbs?
the law's (which is in place already) new revision and clarification is still in commitee...I doubt it will actually pass...
the test is at a right angle...18" off the ground....sled rev'd to 4000 rpms...78dbs?
Old Coyote
Newbie
A lot of fuss over nothing. There has been a speed law in Michigan for over thirty years. Quoting the official DNR web site:
this was in effect in the 70's as the following that began with the 1977-1978 season:
So what is really going to change?
It really helps to know what you are talking about. Don't believe me? look for yourself.
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10365_14824-32293--,00.html
this was in effect in the 70's as the following that began with the 1977-1978 season:
So what is really going to change?
It really helps to know what you are talking about. Don't believe me? look for yourself.
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10365_14824-32293--,00.html
You are correct..IT DOES HELP TO KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT.. and there are subtle yet major changes....
the proposed bill had much more teeth to it as to the testing...it has softened some back some...the most recent revision adds to your 1977 current law (including updating the sae standard from 1977 to 2003)the following when it comes to the noise issue..
(b) For a stationary snowmobile manufactured after July 1,1980 and sold or offered for sale in this state, 88 decibels, as measured using the 2004 society of automotive engineers standard
j2567.
*Jan. 2004 SAE J2567 stationary test overview: The sound meter microphone is placed 4 feet above the ground, inline with the exhaust outlet/center point of multiple exhaust outlets, on the side of the snowmobile toward which the exhaust is directed, 4 meters distance from the snowmobile longitudinal centerline. The operator holds the brake during the test, starts and runs the engine up to normal operating temperature, then slowly opens the throttle until a steady 3,750 to 4,000 rpm is achieved for not less than 4 seconds. The test is immediately repeated and the two readings averaged.
LOOK AT WHERE OUR EXHAUSTS EXIT...THIS IS A MAJOR HIT TO OUR SLEDS !!!!
in addition....the bill clarifies the penalty for these and other violations listed at $100.00-$250.00...where the current law had nothing....and since the current law was vague as to enforcement and penalty...it wasnt enforced...now it seems it will be over enforced with penalty defined!
the governor still needs to sign...but she's a screwup so theres no hope there..
the proposed bill had much more teeth to it as to the testing...it has softened some back some...the most recent revision adds to your 1977 current law (including updating the sae standard from 1977 to 2003)the following when it comes to the noise issue..
(b) For a stationary snowmobile manufactured after July 1,1980 and sold or offered for sale in this state, 88 decibels, as measured using the 2004 society of automotive engineers standard
j2567.
*Jan. 2004 SAE J2567 stationary test overview: The sound meter microphone is placed 4 feet above the ground, inline with the exhaust outlet/center point of multiple exhaust outlets, on the side of the snowmobile toward which the exhaust is directed, 4 meters distance from the snowmobile longitudinal centerline. The operator holds the brake during the test, starts and runs the engine up to normal operating temperature, then slowly opens the throttle until a steady 3,750 to 4,000 rpm is achieved for not less than 4 seconds. The test is immediately repeated and the two readings averaged.
LOOK AT WHERE OUR EXHAUSTS EXIT...THIS IS A MAJOR HIT TO OUR SLEDS !!!!
in addition....the bill clarifies the penalty for these and other violations listed at $100.00-$250.00...where the current law had nothing....and since the current law was vague as to enforcement and penalty...it wasnt enforced...now it seems it will be over enforced with penalty defined!
the governor still needs to sign...but she's a screwup so theres no hope there..
Old Coyote
Newbie
And ALL stock snowmobiles are within the limits. With the modern snowmobile and programmed, computer controlled ignitions an aftermarket pipe isn't likely to give that much more real performance gain. Clutching, gearing and proper track adjustment likely to show better gains by getting more power to the track. If you think you need to play with the engine, blue print it and see real gains.
Bottom line is if you don't like Michigan's laws, vote with your feet. Move someplace where their laws suit you better. Bear in mind that there are places that don't allow ANY aftermarket pipes regardless of sound level. I think Ontario is that way and maybe Wisconsin.
Bottom line is if you don't like Michigan's laws, vote with your feet. Move someplace where their laws suit you better. Bear in mind that there are places that don't allow ANY aftermarket pipes regardless of sound level. I think Ontario is that way and maybe Wisconsin.
bottomline....rights....first they take a little here...then a little there...before you know it your sport of freedom is not free...
Rockmeister
TY Advertiser
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I agree whole heartedly with sj on this issue!sj said:
Everything always starts small and sounds admirable intitially with the state, then grows exponentially.
For example:
The founder of MADD recently resigned due to the organization becoming a "neo-prohibitionist movement".
(Her words.)
Her intent in founding MADD was to get the existing laws enforced to get repeated drunk drivers off the roads, Never to make over 80% of the population criminals.
Once the state found a major revenue stream with drinking, everything went haywire.
That's why they can arrest you for public intox in a bar now. (And they do in many places, most recently in Texas and New Jersey.)
Wait until you are on a fast, smooth, clear trail and get pulled over at the end of it and handed a $200 ticket. (Not to mention what it does to your insurance rates and license.) Think it will be "ok" then? I doubt it...
There is little to no money in catching criminals, yet there is LOTS of money in "catching" the majority of riders (the general population)!
Once the state finds this new source of revenue, you think they are going to give it up?
The objective of ANY organization is to survive and grow, whether that is a stated objective or not.
And most any organization depends on money to grow/survive, it's no different with the DNR/Law Enforcement.
If someone is being an idiot, there are laws the officials can use now to help correct the behavior.
They should do it! We don't need new laws that will be used to get money from YOU to do that!
Before everyone thinks I like loud obnoxious pipes...
Have worked in off-road for years and the fact is, the major complaints about off-roading are noise and rude (lack of respect) behavior.
Am definitely against obnoxious noise and poor behavior. Absolutely NO question, I AM AGAINST LOUD SLEDS.
I am also against creating another situation that creates a revenue stream out of YOUR pocket for the state!
The usual objective of any ticket is two-fold, to change behavior and to generate revenue for the state.
Unfortunately you well know the state uses most tickets for revenue generation, and that is only viable when you give LOTS of them!
You and I both know the DNR could stop loud exhausts now, but it isn't profitable at this point.
Groomerdriver
TY 4 Stroke Master
sj...your passion is compelling, but mis-directed....IMO.
My guess is that you are not involved with trail work in any way, shape or form.....and if you have been, it is on an extremely limited basis....only so you can say "I helped" to anybody who will listen to you.
I have been on the "front lines" for over 20 years...FIGHTING to keep trails in, BEGGING landowners to "give us just one more chance".
Fighting and begging for people like you.....yes you. People who feel that they are above the people that make the law, and know more than those that make the laws. People who believe that they are "entitled" to be able to snowmobile where and when they want, however they want to.
MSA is not perfect just like the AWSC (Wisconsin) is not perfect. The state governments of MI and WI are both FAR from perfect. Take your passion and run for higher office in the MSA. If you have the majority supporting you, you will be elected. Then continue your mission.
IMO...supporting ANYTHING that has even the slightest possibility of closing 1 more inch, foot or mile of trails pushes this sport closer to being just a fraction of what it once was.
There's been a great deal of good discussion on this thread. I've said my peace and will sit back and read what ever else is posted. Say whatever you want to me sj, but I will not get into any verbal battles with you. It is obvious you've made up your mind on the directionyou want to take.
Good riding to us all!
My guess is that you are not involved with trail work in any way, shape or form.....and if you have been, it is on an extremely limited basis....only so you can say "I helped" to anybody who will listen to you.
I have been on the "front lines" for over 20 years...FIGHTING to keep trails in, BEGGING landowners to "give us just one more chance".
Fighting and begging for people like you.....yes you. People who feel that they are above the people that make the law, and know more than those that make the laws. People who believe that they are "entitled" to be able to snowmobile where and when they want, however they want to.
MSA is not perfect just like the AWSC (Wisconsin) is not perfect. The state governments of MI and WI are both FAR from perfect. Take your passion and run for higher office in the MSA. If you have the majority supporting you, you will be elected. Then continue your mission.
IMO...supporting ANYTHING that has even the slightest possibility of closing 1 more inch, foot or mile of trails pushes this sport closer to being just a fraction of what it once was.
There's been a great deal of good discussion on this thread. I've said my peace and will sit back and read what ever else is posted. Say whatever you want to me sj, but I will not get into any verbal battles with you. It is obvious you've made up your mind on the directionyou want to take.
Good riding to us all!
As an individual who has a different perspective and obviously considerable experience where I dont...I totally respect your input and opinion...
Fact is only the hard working people who organize the trails...whether it be from negotiating to marking or grooming make it possible to enjoy the sport..
I think there can be a happy balance towards keeping the peace with respect towards landowners rights and not over controlling one particular sport...
You are correct...my knowledge is limited on the inner workings of the entire system..but I do know this..
If I'm the average rider...I pay $7,500 for a sled...of which $450.00 in taxes go to the state...I buy more goods.....fuel...lodging...food...this sport is a 4 month season billion dollar industry....infusing money into the state and every little local economy....sustaining many which would never survive...in short what's good for the sportsman(sledder) is good for the economy.
when the economy was good..I'd be more likely to agree with you on catering to landowners to protect their yes ....but now...I feel...if that owner says no...it'll still work out...maybe a trail will change a little here or there...and yes I know it takes a great deal of work...but no matter what...land will change hands and some will close and some new will open regardless.
not sure...but I think the problem is with only a few...and anytime the government makes laws to protect a few from harming a few that affects the majority they overcorrect.
IMO, if our machines were silent..these same people would find something else to fight about..
fact is the person who sponsored this bill represents the wealthiest portion of our northern Michigan areas...with many extremely wealthy out of state land owners being his constituents...some towns not allowing sleds in them completely ...
so this isnt silencing the guy with the zrt 800 with stingers riding like a madman after he left the bar at 1:00 a.m......this is banging on the respectful 40-45 yr old non drinker-rider at 3:00 in the afternnoon problem..
as stated by others..I dont think it's fair...the semi's with their "J" brakes...harley's etc...all make consiberably more noise affecting more people.
the people who hate snowmobiling....will continue to do so regardless of the noise law....just like there are some who hate motorcycle's...semi's....muscle cars...jet skis...atv's...hunting....etc.
Fact is only the hard working people who organize the trails...whether it be from negotiating to marking or grooming make it possible to enjoy the sport..
I think there can be a happy balance towards keeping the peace with respect towards landowners rights and not over controlling one particular sport...
You are correct...my knowledge is limited on the inner workings of the entire system..but I do know this..
If I'm the average rider...I pay $7,500 for a sled...of which $450.00 in taxes go to the state...I buy more goods.....fuel...lodging...food...this sport is a 4 month season billion dollar industry....infusing money into the state and every little local economy....sustaining many which would never survive...in short what's good for the sportsman(sledder) is good for the economy.
when the economy was good..I'd be more likely to agree with you on catering to landowners to protect their yes ....but now...I feel...if that owner says no...it'll still work out...maybe a trail will change a little here or there...and yes I know it takes a great deal of work...but no matter what...land will change hands and some will close and some new will open regardless.
not sure...but I think the problem is with only a few...and anytime the government makes laws to protect a few from harming a few that affects the majority they overcorrect.
IMO, if our machines were silent..these same people would find something else to fight about..
fact is the person who sponsored this bill represents the wealthiest portion of our northern Michigan areas...with many extremely wealthy out of state land owners being his constituents...some towns not allowing sleds in them completely ...
so this isnt silencing the guy with the zrt 800 with stingers riding like a madman after he left the bar at 1:00 a.m......this is banging on the respectful 40-45 yr old non drinker-rider at 3:00 in the afternnoon problem..
as stated by others..I dont think it's fair...the semi's with their "J" brakes...harley's etc...all make consiberably more noise affecting more people.
the people who hate snowmobiling....will continue to do so regardless of the noise law....just like there are some who hate motorcycle's...semi's....muscle cars...jet skis...atv's...hunting....etc.
edge_kw
Extreme
mdkuni
TY 4 Stroke Guru
Noise has never been an issue with me on others sleds. I enjoy the sound of a snowmobile in the distance. Stock pipes or not it is a beautful sound. With that being said, I have never and will never own a sled with a loud exhaust. I ride a lot and do not need my ears ringing after listening to my exhaust for 300 miles. I love this sport and everything about it. Ride all over my propery I do not care! You are not doing any damage and I support sledders. Now if I was woke up 6 times a night by loud sleds it may be an issue, but not during the day.
If speed limits are ever placed on Michigan trails I would have to give up the sport. That is part of what makes this sport great, the freedom as mentioned earlier. I love the speed of these sleds and love to use the speed but only at times I know I am in control and it is a safe environment to do so. Places like the old rail beds or the local seasonal roads that I know so well. If you take that away then we all need to buy Snoscoots and the manufacturers can forget about high hp sleds because we will never use it .
If speed limits are ever placed on Michigan trails I would have to give up the sport. That is part of what makes this sport great, the freedom as mentioned earlier. I love the speed of these sleds and love to use the speed but only at times I know I am in control and it is a safe environment to do so. Places like the old rail beds or the local seasonal roads that I know so well. If you take that away then we all need to buy Snoscoots and the manufacturers can forget about high hp sleds because we will never use it .
exactly...
I will give up the sport or start speinding my money where they appreciate it..Canada..even with the same laws...the ridings better..
I will give up the sport or start speinding my money where they appreciate it..Canada..even with the same laws...the ridings better..
SledHedz
Pro
I can't believe the MSA was behind this.. In my opinion, this would be like the NRA pushing to ban guns..
Superman
TY 4 Stroke Master
On one hand I can understand why you would want to police yourself. On the other it seems stupid as hell. Loud bikes are 100x more of a pain in the @$$ than snowmobiles and there's probably hundreds of thousands more bikes on Michigan road ways disturbing the piece than snowmobiles.
SledHedz said:
they claim they needed to be to satisfy the land owners or fear of trail closures...
in my opinion....this is the first step ...the people opposed to us still will bitch when are sleds fall within the noise tolerances for other reasons because they just plain dont like us..