rj998
Pro
I wonder if doing this mod would fix my 2011, i really didnt want to spend a grand on a z-broz front end. What do you think?
I rode about 20 miles and the mod is an improvement, but didn't make a dramatic difference. What really surprised me was that my sled pushed in the corners. It basically felt like the front end was a bit "dull" as it just didn't cut a turn like it did before. What puzzles me is the opposite should have happened. Since the outside ski is now at negative camber (about -1 to -1.5 degrees as best I could measure since the floor in my garage has a slight slope). I would have thought the front end would have bit harder in the corners. When you do the mod you have to realign your skis as they will toe in since the tops of the spindles are now leaning in towards the shocks. I set my toe out at spec which is 0-15 mm. Since even a brand new sled has a little bit of slop in the steering linkage, this is never a perfectly accurate measurement so they give you a bit over 1/2" of tolerance to set toe.
In any case while I don't regret doing the mod it didn't make as much of a difference as some of the posts have claimed. I actually think the sled now corners worse than before in some types of snow conditions since the front end pushes and then grabs causing it to lift the ski. Then in other corners it turned pretty flat. Before the mod the sled seemed a bit more consistent. High speed stability was improved, the sled was a bit less twitchy so that is definitely a plus. The down side is it seems like I traded some minor improvement in stability for a loss of precision in the corners.
The mod didn't absolutely nothing for bump steer. I didn't expect that it would and I think that bump steer is the major reason why the Nytro does not handle as good as most every other sled. I rode on semi set up/mushy snow underlaid with ice and the corners were filled with stutter bumps. I'd go hard into a corner and yikes! The bars would start turning back and forth really quickly and the sled would jerk from side to side. The sled has done this from year one of ownership and I've finally realized that it is bump steer causing this phenomenon. If you don't ride hard and fast in rough terrain you will probably never experience it. But when you do you won't forget it as the bars are almost ripped from your hands if you hit the bumps just right and at speed. I believe this is also why the sled is not controllable in the big whoops at higher speeds. It feels like it has a mind of its own.
I don't see this mod working on the '09 since it has shorter top a-arms which I believe was to give it negative camber. Since guys complain about twitchy handling on the 09's and newer, I personally think the Nytro front end is geometrically flawed and no matter what new a-arms, skis, carbides, spindles you buy or adjustments you make make with lowering, raising, toe in, toe out, preload, etc., it still is not going to handle as good as pretty much every other 600 cc sled. I did this mod with the hope it would show me there was still some potential in getting my Nytro to handle as decently as a Polaris Pro-R or a Cat Sno-Pro. I know that's not going to happen unless either the aftermarket or Yamaha comes out with an entirely new front subframe and a-arms with different geometry. Seems like some aftermarket company could make some money here.
Anyhow, enough complaining.
Here are some pics of the conditions I tested it in.
The creek was breaking up and a lot deeper than it looked!
We are having an early spring in AK since we didn't get our normal amount of snow.
I rode from my home and up onto the mountain to run the trail and hit whoops. Very nice evening!
In any case while I don't regret doing the mod it didn't make as much of a difference as some of the posts have claimed. I actually think the sled now corners worse than before in some types of snow conditions since the front end pushes and then grabs causing it to lift the ski. Then in other corners it turned pretty flat. Before the mod the sled seemed a bit more consistent. High speed stability was improved, the sled was a bit less twitchy so that is definitely a plus. The down side is it seems like I traded some minor improvement in stability for a loss of precision in the corners.
The mod didn't absolutely nothing for bump steer. I didn't expect that it would and I think that bump steer is the major reason why the Nytro does not handle as good as most every other sled. I rode on semi set up/mushy snow underlaid with ice and the corners were filled with stutter bumps. I'd go hard into a corner and yikes! The bars would start turning back and forth really quickly and the sled would jerk from side to side. The sled has done this from year one of ownership and I've finally realized that it is bump steer causing this phenomenon. If you don't ride hard and fast in rough terrain you will probably never experience it. But when you do you won't forget it as the bars are almost ripped from your hands if you hit the bumps just right and at speed. I believe this is also why the sled is not controllable in the big whoops at higher speeds. It feels like it has a mind of its own.
I don't see this mod working on the '09 since it has shorter top a-arms which I believe was to give it negative camber. Since guys complain about twitchy handling on the 09's and newer, I personally think the Nytro front end is geometrically flawed and no matter what new a-arms, skis, carbides, spindles you buy or adjustments you make make with lowering, raising, toe in, toe out, preload, etc., it still is not going to handle as good as pretty much every other 600 cc sled. I did this mod with the hope it would show me there was still some potential in getting my Nytro to handle as decently as a Polaris Pro-R or a Cat Sno-Pro. I know that's not going to happen unless either the aftermarket or Yamaha comes out with an entirely new front subframe and a-arms with different geometry. Seems like some aftermarket company could make some money here.
Anyhow, enough complaining.
Here are some pics of the conditions I tested it in.
The creek was breaking up and a lot deeper than it looked!
We are having an early spring in AK since we didn't get our normal amount of snow.
I rode from my home and up onto the mountain to run the trail and hit whoops. Very nice evening!
Woke up this morning and was ever optimistic and starting thinking about buying some '09 spindles and tie rods since that would be way, way cheaper than buying a new sled. Figured I could do more testing up at the Pass and know for sure if I was accomplishing anything. That's actually the whole point of this exercise. I'm wanting to see if my Nytro can be made to handle so I could run it one more year for racing.
And the verdict.... no.
This morning I went for a ride on the same trail as yesterday evening, everything froze up overnight and the snow was hard and icy. Went for a high speed run down the straight away and my old Nytro was back. Headshake, darting, hunting, whatever you want to call it, it was the same nervous handling I had before. I then turned to head into the woods with lots of twists and turns and stutter bumps. There was really no difference in handling than how it acted before the mod. I was disappointed and just went home since there was no point in burning up hyfax and my temp light came on at the end since the trail was so hard and set up. These are the conditions where I've always found my Nytro to be scary and unpredictable. I made a couple more high speed runs up and down the straight away and since I was chewing up the surface on the 2000' section, I could go faster and faster since the old ski ruts were being broken up.
Ideally I'd go and try different skis, carbides, could throw on my Duece bars, but why? The sled still can't go through the bumps without bump steer. I'm of the opinion that it is pointless to spend any more time doing anything to this abortion of a front suspension. I don't know if Yamaha had some junior engineer design it, but I know they are capable of designing a good handling a-arms front end as they've been making good handling sport quads since the mid 1980's. I firmly believe the '09 geometry is not the cure because lots of guys still complain about the Nytro's handling. I believe, and I'm repeating what I've been told and also read on TY, that the '09 front geometry did not change things enough to make a big improvement nor is it worthwhile to upgrade an '08.
I hope my posts don't rub anyone the wrong way. I really appreciate people posting ideas and the only way we can improve our sleds is to try new things. If you can do this mod yourself on a lathe or have a buddy that will do it free or for some cheap beer, it may be worth it to you. I'd rather have the $78 back that I spent for a machinist to do mine. That would drop my deposit down on a new sled to what, $422?
Here are some pics of the conditions I rode this morning.
Typical stutter bumps in the corners, my Nytro is an ill-handling b!tch when going through them at speed.
The straight away I mentioned.
Close up of the set up trail.
Here's a pic of a rough, whooped out section of the race course I ran in March. My Nytro can easily get out of shape in these conditions. The other 600's I got to ride after the race were way, way more stable and predictable through these types of conditions.
And as part of the research I've done, here are some links:
http://www.snowgoer.com/output.cfm?id=1867249
A review talking about the changes from '08 to '09.
http://sledhead24-7.com/
This site had some interesting videos about the '12 rough trail sleds. Watch how the RTX rides compared to the others. It is not as planted, stable nor does it soak up the bumps as well. I found it to be pretty eye opening.
And the verdict.... no.
This morning I went for a ride on the same trail as yesterday evening, everything froze up overnight and the snow was hard and icy. Went for a high speed run down the straight away and my old Nytro was back. Headshake, darting, hunting, whatever you want to call it, it was the same nervous handling I had before. I then turned to head into the woods with lots of twists and turns and stutter bumps. There was really no difference in handling than how it acted before the mod. I was disappointed and just went home since there was no point in burning up hyfax and my temp light came on at the end since the trail was so hard and set up. These are the conditions where I've always found my Nytro to be scary and unpredictable. I made a couple more high speed runs up and down the straight away and since I was chewing up the surface on the 2000' section, I could go faster and faster since the old ski ruts were being broken up.
Ideally I'd go and try different skis, carbides, could throw on my Duece bars, but why? The sled still can't go through the bumps without bump steer. I'm of the opinion that it is pointless to spend any more time doing anything to this abortion of a front suspension. I don't know if Yamaha had some junior engineer design it, but I know they are capable of designing a good handling a-arms front end as they've been making good handling sport quads since the mid 1980's. I firmly believe the '09 geometry is not the cure because lots of guys still complain about the Nytro's handling. I believe, and I'm repeating what I've been told and also read on TY, that the '09 front geometry did not change things enough to make a big improvement nor is it worthwhile to upgrade an '08.
I hope my posts don't rub anyone the wrong way. I really appreciate people posting ideas and the only way we can improve our sleds is to try new things. If you can do this mod yourself on a lathe or have a buddy that will do it free or for some cheap beer, it may be worth it to you. I'd rather have the $78 back that I spent for a machinist to do mine. That would drop my deposit down on a new sled to what, $422?
Here are some pics of the conditions I rode this morning.
Typical stutter bumps in the corners, my Nytro is an ill-handling b!tch when going through them at speed.
The straight away I mentioned.
Close up of the set up trail.
Here's a pic of a rough, whooped out section of the race course I ran in March. My Nytro can easily get out of shape in these conditions. The other 600's I got to ride after the race were way, way more stable and predictable through these types of conditions.
And as part of the research I've done, here are some links:
http://www.snowgoer.com/output.cfm?id=1867249
A review talking about the changes from '08 to '09.
http://sledhead24-7.com/
This site had some interesting videos about the '12 rough trail sleds. Watch how the RTX rides compared to the others. It is not as planted, stable nor does it soak up the bumps as well. I found it to be pretty eye opening.
sgilbert
TY 4 Stroke Guru
maybe I missed it, but what are tour skis? simmons?
Simmons are a dual skag ski with the carbides located on the outside edges.I've ridden them on an old Polaris XLT and they are better for off trail riding and cruising. They don't corner as well as a traditional ski, but they do help prevent darting because of the dual skags.
Here is another link I found in my research:
http://www.bergstromskegs.com/testimoni ... t_died.htm
I think this clears up why the '09 FXG2 geometry was not the saving grace for the Nytro.
http://www.bergstromskegs.com/testimoni ... t_died.htm
I think this clears up why the '09 FXG2 geometry was not the saving grace for the Nytro.
sgilbert
TY 4 Stroke Guru
that still doesn't answer my question. I have a feeling I missed something. what skis do you have and have tried? I can tell you my simmons are great, right up till frozen spring morning conditions, then I feel every once of my xtx. exhausting
I've run the stock Nytro skis, Sly Dog Race, Curve, Ultra Flex III (which were a copy of the 6" wide C&A), stock RTX skis which have a deeper keel than the regular Nytro and stock VK Professional skis that are 7 inches wide. On top of that I tried stock carbides, shaper bars, round bars, Duece bars and the custom Curve carbides in both round and shaper styles that had the cutting edges set outwards from the middle of the skag. What was the common theme for all that equipment accumulated over a few years time? None of it cured the sled's handling problems. Sure some helped, some things worked better than others but it was always give and take and what you'd gain for stability (like with the Duece bars) you'd lose in cornering since they pushed.
I like having the discussion on this topic because unless the bump steer is fixed on the Nytro, nothing is going to make the stock '08 or improved '09 front end handle as good as the competition.
I like having the discussion on this topic because unless the bump steer is fixed on the Nytro, nothing is going to make the stock '08 or improved '09 front end handle as good as the competition.
Here is a link to the bump steer thread.
http://www.ty4stroke.com/viewtopic.php?p=906719#906719
I think we are getting closer to coming up with a real fix for the Nytro front end. I actually have some faith that it might be able to tune out the bump steer and make the stock front end work like most of us expected when we bought a ditch banging 4-stroke sled. I think many of the set ups that were mentioned in this thread probably did work okay for smooth, groomed trail riding. It is when the Nytro's suspension is stroking through its travel that the handling problems arise.
http://www.ty4stroke.com/viewtopic.php?p=906719#906719
I think we are getting closer to coming up with a real fix for the Nytro front end. I actually have some faith that it might be able to tune out the bump steer and make the stock front end work like most of us expected when we bought a ditch banging 4-stroke sled. I think many of the set ups that were mentioned in this thread probably did work okay for smooth, groomed trail riding. It is when the Nytro's suspension is stroking through its travel that the handling problems arise.
bulldogbones
Expert
In regards to bump steering. Are we talking about ( in motorcycle terms, tank slap??)
