GYTRules!!!
Extreme
The only thing these XTX videos prove is that Ski-Doo’s cheesy marketing videos got under Yamaha’s skin. Ski-Doo’s cheesy marketing is a big turn-off to everyone including the Doo faithful. Everyone that has seen Ski-Doo’s videos knows they’re a joke and that anybody can make a video to look like one is better than the other. 
Now Yamaha has gone and done the same thing??? Note to Yamaha - PLEASE DON’T IMITATE SKI-DOO. If the guys in the videos said they liked the other sleds more in some area(s) would that make it into the videos? No, therfore they are cheesy biased propaganda, far from any kind of factual information and definitely not good marketing. 
This is not how you win our hearts and minds. I have always thought of Yamaha as a very refined, classy outfit that leads through innovation. These videos are not what I would have expected from Yamaha. Johnny Skeptical was/is pretty funny and somewhat tasteful, these are not. Just build em and leave the bragging to us! 
Another note to Yamaha – You’re playing the winning hand. You’ve already nailed down the important difficult stuff that the competition can’t just engineer into their products overnight (like reliability and quality and killer looks and tons of industry firsts and leadership in the 4 stroke market and products that deliver and momentum, etc., etc., etc.). The competition knows all this and is scared, therefore you've become their target. DON’T LET IT GET TO YOU! Just keep doing what you’re doing and listen to your customers even more than you already are. Keep it cool and classy Yamaha!!!
Now Yamaha has gone and done the same thing??? Note to Yamaha - PLEASE DON’T IMITATE SKI-DOO. If the guys in the videos said they liked the other sleds more in some area(s) would that make it into the videos? No, therfore they are cheesy biased propaganda, far from any kind of factual information and definitely not good marketing. This is not how you win our hearts and minds. I have always thought of Yamaha as a very refined, classy outfit that leads through innovation. These videos are not what I would have expected from Yamaha. Johnny Skeptical was/is pretty funny and somewhat tasteful, these are not. Just build em and leave the bragging to us! Another note to Yamaha – You’re playing the winning hand. You’ve already nailed down the important difficult stuff that the competition can’t just engineer into their products overnight (like reliability and quality and killer looks and tons of industry firsts and leadership in the 4 stroke market and products that deliver and momentum, etc., etc., etc.). The competition knows all this and is scared, therefore you've become their target. DON’T LET IT GET TO YOU! Just keep doing what you’re doing and listen to your customers even more than you already are. Keep it cool and classy Yamaha!!!
2008 Nytro RTX
TY 4 Stroke God
I agree 100% with you,Dont have to go down to there level Yamaha. You are better then them!! Saying these videos are cheesy is being very nice!
ReX
TY 4 Stroke God
One thing I disliked with the Yamaha videos is it was all just talk. There wasn't any attempt to really measure performance comparisons.
With the Skidoo REV-XP videos, at least they attempted to perform measured comparisons (goofy as they were).
One type of video I always like to look at in detail is how a sled handles rough trails. Watching a sled ridden at everything from slow speeds to skipping speeds over moguls really does tell a lot about how well the suspension handles the bumps. The best videos are ones where back to back, on the same bumps, different sleds are ridden.
In all of the 05, 06, 07 and 08 Yamaha videos I always end up laughing at how the rider is constantly being bucked and kicked on the sled. You can see there is no where near enough high speed compression damping (you can see them bottoming out) and worse that that you can see the Yamaha's bucking and kicking back very hard after hitting a big bump (no where near enough rebound damping).
If, on the other hand, you take a look at a REV-XP going over big bumps it is very impressive. The suspension doesn't immediately bottom out on bigger bumps and there is no bucking and kicking. At mogul skipping speeds, the REV-XP's suspension works extremely well at soaking up just enough of the bumps to keep the sled stable. Skidoo managed to capture the sled being ridden at "just the right speed" to show off the rough trail performance.
Looking at the XTX video I have to say I was once again disappointed to see the suspension calibration. It was the best I've seen from Yamaha yet, but still no where near what it could be (still not enough rebound damping).
Every time I watch a Yamaha promotional video showing a Yamaha on rough trails I keep asking myself - Why does Yamaha do this to themselves? Why show a Yamaha sled kicking and bucking and bottoming out on rough trails?
Maybe one day Yamaha will hire someone who really understands shock damping and how to set up a sled to be stable on rough trails...
The other laugh I have with Yamaha videos is watching the skis in high speed corners. In every video you can see that the sled is understeering; especially with the XTX. Why not install some decent sized carbides, reduce the center shock preload and tighten the limiter a hole or two and then make the video? Showing a sled being pushed to the limit doing the equivalent of a well controlled "4-wheel drift" where the skis and track are simultaneously hitting the limit of traction would be so much better than showing a sled simply understeering and pushing in the corners.
To watch the XTX push through corners and then listen to the test riders exclaim how it doesn't push in corners isn't exactly convincing...
With the Skidoo REV-XP videos, at least they attempted to perform measured comparisons (goofy as they were).
One type of video I always like to look at in detail is how a sled handles rough trails. Watching a sled ridden at everything from slow speeds to skipping speeds over moguls really does tell a lot about how well the suspension handles the bumps. The best videos are ones where back to back, on the same bumps, different sleds are ridden.
In all of the 05, 06, 07 and 08 Yamaha videos I always end up laughing at how the rider is constantly being bucked and kicked on the sled. You can see there is no where near enough high speed compression damping (you can see them bottoming out) and worse that that you can see the Yamaha's bucking and kicking back very hard after hitting a big bump (no where near enough rebound damping).
If, on the other hand, you take a look at a REV-XP going over big bumps it is very impressive. The suspension doesn't immediately bottom out on bigger bumps and there is no bucking and kicking. At mogul skipping speeds, the REV-XP's suspension works extremely well at soaking up just enough of the bumps to keep the sled stable. Skidoo managed to capture the sled being ridden at "just the right speed" to show off the rough trail performance.
Looking at the XTX video I have to say I was once again disappointed to see the suspension calibration. It was the best I've seen from Yamaha yet, but still no where near what it could be (still not enough rebound damping).
Every time I watch a Yamaha promotional video showing a Yamaha on rough trails I keep asking myself - Why does Yamaha do this to themselves? Why show a Yamaha sled kicking and bucking and bottoming out on rough trails?
Maybe one day Yamaha will hire someone who really understands shock damping and how to set up a sled to be stable on rough trails...
The other laugh I have with Yamaha videos is watching the skis in high speed corners. In every video you can see that the sled is understeering; especially with the XTX. Why not install some decent sized carbides, reduce the center shock preload and tighten the limiter a hole or two and then make the video? Showing a sled being pushed to the limit doing the equivalent of a well controlled "4-wheel drift" where the skis and track are simultaneously hitting the limit of traction would be so much better than showing a sled simply understeering and pushing in the corners.
To watch the XTX push through corners and then listen to the test riders exclaim how it doesn't push in corners isn't exactly convincing...
welterracer
TY 4 Stroke God
Here is what i think.. first off, i don't believe the Nytro would beat those other 600s by that wide of a margin..
I have a buddy who has a xp600 and that thing wheelies from a stop.and it is very fast, not more than 4 lengths behind my apex. .. I didn't see a wheelie from the xp in the video, and it really looked like the guy was babying the throttle coming off the line..
other thing, i would pound threw those moguls a lot harder in real life than what they did in the video.. 70+mph in some cases..
I have a buddy who has a xp600 and that thing wheelies from a stop.and it is very fast, not more than 4 lengths behind my apex. .. I didn't see a wheelie from the xp in the video, and it really looked like the guy was babying the throttle coming off the line..
other thing, i would pound threw those moguls a lot harder in real life than what they did in the video.. 70+mph in some cases..
Kråkan
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
I KNOW the Nytro smokes the xp600 every day of the week. Ride stock klass in "backe" in sweden, (my first race ever today) and I missed the start in the first heat. In the first corner I was 2nd but was to nice and got scuiced alittle and came out 5th. Second heat I was to eager for revenge and I did a false start. DAMN!!!
3rd heat I did a bad start again but came to first curve 1/2 sled before an XP RS..... He had the inner and passed me. Came in second in that heat with was great for me with only 1 practice on a snowcross track and the first race ever...
Now the thing is that there are alot of RS XPs, I dont think that there was any regular XP600SDIs in the race. And some Lynx (XP based RS racer) and there were 4 Nytros that were very quick all of them... (remember that I am racing with 1,5" ripsaw against 1,75tracks and I had one of the fastest starts...!!!) The XP that won the heat where I got second, won the whole thing and in second place there was a Nytro.
Anyhow the Nytros is very fast, that was the one thing that almost everyone said today... Those things are QUICK!!!
Although I agree the videos are BAD and not to Yamaha standard...
3rd heat I did a bad start again but came to first curve 1/2 sled before an XP RS..... He had the inner and passed me. Came in second in that heat with was great for me with only 1 practice on a snowcross track and the first race ever...
Now the thing is that there are alot of RS XPs, I dont think that there was any regular XP600SDIs in the race. And some Lynx (XP based RS racer) and there were 4 Nytros that were very quick all of them... (remember that I am racing with 1,5" ripsaw against 1,75tracks and I had one of the fastest starts...!!!) The XP that won the heat where I got second, won the whole thing and in second place there was a Nytro.
Anyhow the Nytros is very fast, that was the one thing that almost everyone said today... Those things are QUICK!!!
Although I agree the videos are BAD and not to Yamaha standard...
T-ReX1
Veteran
Welt: The Nytro will smoke the xp 600 SDI every time. At our local races a Nyto MTX won the 600 class by at least as much as in the video. These were formal drag races on snow using lights with a timing system. BTY, the Nyto just missed the finals in the 700 class.
ReX
TY 4 Stroke God
Yamaha does build absolutely incredible engines and they also do a very nice job on the rest of the chassis and drivetrain.
I would hope and expect that the Nytro would beat a 600. By how much, I'm not sure. Some of those "competition" sleds shown in the videos were not even spinning the track off the line. From what I've seen of the 600's, they all have enough power to spin the track.
What Yamaha does an embarrassingly poor job on is shock calibration and overall out the door sled setup.
Did any of you catch Snowmobiler TV on the weekend and have a chance to really examine how the Yamaha's went over bumps compared to the competition? There was one scene where an FX Nytro was pounding moguls and the back end was kicking up high in the air after every bump. That was once again a perfect demonstration of how poorly the shock valving is calibrated for rough trails. I recorded it with our PVR and was able to step through it back and forth to take a good look at the suspension travel and response to bumps. It was both bottoming out and springing/kicking off every bump. I have to say it is embarrassing to see how badly Yamaha's latest "rough trail" sled handles bumps in stock form.
Do the Yamaha engineers simply not understand shock valving or is there another reason they set them up so badly?
To the best of my knowledge Yamaha is still using single stage valve stacks on all of their sleds, including their top of the line rough trail sleds. My 2007 Apex RTX (Yamaha's top of the line rough trail sled at the time) definitely uses single stage valve stacks in both the center and main shock. All of the other manufacturer's shocks that I've taken apart in the past 10 years have used at least three stage valving (this includes non-rough trail sleds too - they just use multiple stages of softer valving). The other manufacturers have been using 3+ stage shock valving with their big bump sleds for about 15 years.
You'd think Yamaha would have found the time to open up a set of Skidoo, Cat, or Polaris shocks and apply some of that knowledge to at least the big bump sleds by now. If you take a 2007 Apex RTX and install the shock valve stacks from a 2007 REV MXZ, the ride and stability improvement would be incredible (even without re-optimizing for the increased weight).
I would hope and expect that the Nytro would beat a 600. By how much, I'm not sure. Some of those "competition" sleds shown in the videos were not even spinning the track off the line. From what I've seen of the 600's, they all have enough power to spin the track.
What Yamaha does an embarrassingly poor job on is shock calibration and overall out the door sled setup.
Did any of you catch Snowmobiler TV on the weekend and have a chance to really examine how the Yamaha's went over bumps compared to the competition? There was one scene where an FX Nytro was pounding moguls and the back end was kicking up high in the air after every bump. That was once again a perfect demonstration of how poorly the shock valving is calibrated for rough trails. I recorded it with our PVR and was able to step through it back and forth to take a good look at the suspension travel and response to bumps. It was both bottoming out and springing/kicking off every bump. I have to say it is embarrassing to see how badly Yamaha's latest "rough trail" sled handles bumps in stock form.
Do the Yamaha engineers simply not understand shock valving or is there another reason they set them up so badly?
To the best of my knowledge Yamaha is still using single stage valve stacks on all of their sleds, including their top of the line rough trail sleds. My 2007 Apex RTX (Yamaha's top of the line rough trail sled at the time) definitely uses single stage valve stacks in both the center and main shock. All of the other manufacturer's shocks that I've taken apart in the past 10 years have used at least three stage valving (this includes non-rough trail sleds too - they just use multiple stages of softer valving). The other manufacturers have been using 3+ stage shock valving with their big bump sleds for about 15 years.
You'd think Yamaha would have found the time to open up a set of Skidoo, Cat, or Polaris shocks and apply some of that knowledge to at least the big bump sleds by now. If you take a 2007 Apex RTX and install the shock valve stacks from a 2007 REV MXZ, the ride and stability improvement would be incredible (even without re-optimizing for the increased weight).
GYTRules!!!
Extreme
john_the_fisherman
Extreme
Come on guys... this is marketing, what do you expect. I have yet to see an OEM video that wasn't complete one sided propaganda and BS and that includes Yamaha. Yeah, the Johnny Skeptical ones were funny, but they were total propaganda.
What should disturb people more than any of these stupid videos is the way these magazines shill for the manufacturers all in the pursuit of the almighty marketing dollar. Journalism is SUPPOSED to be objective.
Take the Lester's from Snowtrax. These two guys ranted and raved about how great the old ProAction skid in the SXRs and Vipers was for years until Yamaha cut back their ad budget and all of a sudden, Yamaha couldn't do anything right with their chassis. And does anyone really believe that the Rev XP only weights 399 lbs dry??? Please. I helped put a new bulkhead in a gen 1 rev last year and I don't know how BRP could reliably shave that much weight off the original one. One of these magazines should hang one of those things on a scale, but it will never happen, at least not with the mainstream mags. Their reviews of that sled read like a script from Ski-Doo. I will say, Ski-Doo is very threatened by Yamaha though. Kind of funny.
What should disturb people more than any of these stupid videos is the way these magazines shill for the manufacturers all in the pursuit of the almighty marketing dollar. Journalism is SUPPOSED to be objective.
Take the Lester's from Snowtrax. These two guys ranted and raved about how great the old ProAction skid in the SXRs and Vipers was for years until Yamaha cut back their ad budget and all of a sudden, Yamaha couldn't do anything right with their chassis. And does anyone really believe that the Rev XP only weights 399 lbs dry??? Please. I helped put a new bulkhead in a gen 1 rev last year and I don't know how BRP could reliably shave that much weight off the original one. One of these magazines should hang one of those things on a scale, but it will never happen, at least not with the mainstream mags. Their reviews of that sled read like a script from Ski-Doo. I will say, Ski-Doo is very threatened by Yamaha though. Kind of funny.
Phatboyc
TY 4 Stroke Master
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Hi guys, As corny these video's are I wouldn't mind seeing the one for the XTX. Any link?
Edit: All good, I found it. http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/products/modelvideo/604/604/0/video.aspx
Edit: All good, I found it. http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/products/modelvideo/604/604/0/video.aspx
Phatboyc
TY 4 Stroke Master
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Ha ha ha. It's not a sled magazine test riders. It's a dealer meeting.
But I did like the fact they brought some competition along. As long as they are all comparable. I don't know much about the others. Was the Rev an XP? Is the F6 Arctic Cat in the same league?
But showing us how far ahead the XTX is (especially in the drag race) is a joke. It can get 10 sled length on the others so easily without nitrous. How can anyone compete now. lol Oh yeah all this with the same engine but longer track and different front geometry...
But I did like the fact they brought some competition along. As long as they are all comparable. I don't know much about the others. Was the Rev an XP? Is the F6 Arctic Cat in the same league?
But showing us how far ahead the XTX is (especially in the drag race) is a joke. It can get 10 sled length on the others so easily without nitrous. How can anyone compete now. lol Oh yeah all this with the same engine but longer track and different front geometry...
Phatboyc
TY 4 Stroke Master
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Coincidently yesterday I saw a video on Youtube paid by Polaris. It was the guy and girl of Sled Head 24/7 praising how good the new Switchback is.
I don't blame Yamaha to get these sell-out to talk on their commercial video. But the fact they sound like a cheesy infomercial at 2 in the morning is a discredit to Yamaha.
I don't blame Yamaha to get these sell-out to talk on their commercial video. But the fact they sound like a cheesy infomercial at 2 in the morning is a discredit to Yamaha.
ReX
TY 4 Stroke God
john_the_fisherman said:
What I find comical is how the videos of the Yamaha's show them kicking and bucking over the bumps and understeering in the corners and then the reviewers go and say how great they are at handling big bumps and how they don't understeer.
If you watch the Skidoo video's, while still a bunch of propeganda, at least they show the sled soaking up big bumps, landing off jumps without bottoming out and cornering at high speeds in a full sled drift.
Its almost like Yamaha thinks that showing a sled not handling well makes them look good somehow. Sure the Yamaha sleds are fun in stock form, but when riding with a bunch of Skidoo's the poor stock calibration really shows up big time.
As I've said before, the XTX videos are the best I've seen from Yamaha, but they still show a sled that doesn't look as stable or as capable of cornering when compared to the Skidoo videos.
The fact that most of us go out of our way to change everything also shows the issue loud and clear. How many of us tweak and tweak the suspension settings, end up revalving our shocks and end up replacing the skis? Compare that to a Skidoo, most of them are run virtually stock.
Once a Yamaha is dialed in, they make an awesome sled. I just don't understand why Yamaha doesn't set their top performance and rough trail sleds up at the factory to perform well for an aggressive rider. $20 worth of valves for the shocks (for the extra compression stages), $20 better skis (or at least larger diameter wear bars and rubber bumper to raise the ski tips), and a slightly tighter limiter strap would make all the difference.
john_the_fisherman
Extreme
Compare that to a Skidoo, most of them are run virtually stock.
You're kidding right? That new Rev XP has as many setup and calibration issues as any sled on the market, barring maybe the Nytro. The old Rev was just as bad if not worse. The shocks on a Gen 1 600SDI were valved and setup for about a 160 guy, anything over that and you could bottom the thing at will. My brother-in-law owns a Gen 1 and a Gen 2 Rev and he spends just as much time in his garage dialing his in as anybody.
You're kidding right? That new Rev XP has as many setup and calibration issues as any sled on the market, barring maybe the Nytro. The old Rev was just as bad if not worse. The shocks on a Gen 1 600SDI were valved and setup for about a 160 guy, anything over that and you could bottom the thing at will. My brother-in-law owns a Gen 1 and a Gen 2 Rev and he spends just as much time in his garage dialing his in as anybody.
ReX
TY 4 Stroke God
john_the_fisherman said:
I ride with two REV-XP's and all that has been done to them is to tighten the limiter strap by 1 hole and reduce the weight transfer setting to minimum. The suspensions don't bottom out too easily, they don't kick back off bumps, they handle well, the skis stay on the ground through corners, acceleration is still good (beats all of the Apex's I've seen them line up with), etc.
Prior to this season I rode with 3 REV MXZs and they were at least as well setup. The only one that I found a little too soft was a REV GSX 600SDI (but it is intended to be a single rider touring sled).
Those Gen 1 and Gen 2 REVs you are talking about, are they MXZ sleds or cruisers? The MXZ's are valved quite a bit more firmly than the cruisers. One of the guys I ride with has a REV-XP MXZ X-package and it is the firmest of the MXZ's, but it still does a great job on stutter bumps.
I will agree that no sled is perfect for everyone, but compared to Yamaha's suspensions the REVs are calibrated much better - especially shock valving. Personally I'd like to see a stiffer sway bar on the REV-XPs, but I also changed the sway bar on my Yamahas.
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