Frog Skins Warning! They Block Too Much Air! Cat 7000 Series

[FrozenTows4]

This season I added Frog Skins to my 2014 XF7000.

Thought was to keep snow dust, and debris, out of the engine compartment. Problem is, due to the angle of the hood, air is now deflected up & over and not through the radiator.

While riding a very hard packed icy section of the North Shore Trail, with scratchers down, my temperature rose to 195+. And this was at speeds between 30-50 mph. Pulled over to find the heat exchange must have iced up while at Gooseberry falls.

Beautiful site by the way.

Like the falls, ice had formed over the my heat exchanger. Removed the ice and it remained cool once again.

The previous 250 miles, on the days before this, the sled ran cool as a cucumber in good snow or with the scratchers down as necessary. The rest of the group was having temperatures issues due to the very flat, and hard, trail conditions. Temperatures were -10 to +10 degrees.

My sled was being cooled only by the heat exchanger. Not the radiator. Like I said, due to the angle, air does not penetrate through the hoods radiator cooling vents.

Last season with no scratchers or Frog Skins, as long as 15mph+ was maintained, the engine would remain cool. Hyfax would suffer, in low snow icy conditions, but engine was cool.

Best bet is to install the internal Yamaha radiator guard, to protect the soft radiator fins, and leave the vents open for trail riding.

I have a feeling that the little bit of trail snow dust will probably do it some good. Leave it breath.

I'm now questioning if I should remove the clutch & muffler skins too.

Those are at a pretty good angle too.

I know someone will say "they have never had a problem using Frog Skins". That's because they never have had a heat exchange freeze up on a 4 stroke. Or they have a 2 stroke, that doesn't even have a radiator, and the cooling is aided by fuel.

Bottom line, let the 4 strokes breath.

 

[stingray719]

I have frogskin over the radiator, but mine are UNDER the louviers so they still grab the air and force it in. I agree that putting frogskin on the outside would cause the air to just blow over and not be forced in.

 

[Dirtbikekid1998]

I have frogskin over the radiator, but mine are UNDER the louviers so they still grab the air and force it in. I agree that putting frogskin on the outside would cause the air to just blow over and not be forced in.

Sorry if this is off topic but do you have any pics? I have always thought about putting frog skin there


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[stingray719]

Sorry if this is off topic but do you have any pics? I have always thought about putting frog skin there


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No but will try to remember to get some......but I just separated the hood where it goes together and glued frogskin in and put back together. I did that back when I was normally aspirated and ran without a radiator. When I went turbo I put radiator back in and left frogskin, handy to be able to hit the louvers and snow bounces off.

 

[RTX]

Honestly, i understand your thought process but i dont believe the frogskin is causing you any issues.
I have looked down on plenty of different occasions and in plenty of different snow conditions to see my temp on my 14 viper up over 200f
Every single time i have found the heat exchanger built up a wall of snow in front of it and its not getting cooled with nerw snow. It even happened this weekend in -8 degree temps in maine.
I have actually had the sled lose power on me 3 different times because it got too hot.
My radiator is open/no frogskin. I dont run the fan reverse
Not sure exactly why it happens on this sled so much, but it happens.
Normally when i see the temp getting near 190 i know it is happening and i make an effort to ride harder to shake loose the wall of snow that forms.
Just my experience

 

[Yamadog]

Funny, a well known person here said the only time a Viper overheated was because of the fan reverse. He was wrong and you are right of course.

But in this case reducing air flow by covering the air "scoops" aka louvers would make it worse.

See my post http://www.ty4stroke.com/threads/overheating-code-p0217.140587/

This was last Saturday at -6 deg F and I thought it was the sensor but turned out to be the heat exchanger was froze completely over!!!!

 

[FrozenTows4]

Honestly, i understand your thought process but i dont believe the frogskin is causing you any issues.
I have looked down on plenty of different occasions and in plenty of different snow conditions to see my temp on my 14 viper up over 200f
Every single time i have found the heat exchanger built up a wall of snow in front of it and its not getting cooled with nerw snow. It even happened this weekend in -8 degree temps in maine.
I have actually had the sled lose power on me 3 different times because it got too hot.
My radiator is open/no frogskin. I dont run the fan reverse
Not sure exactly why it happens on this sled so much, but it happens.
Normally when i see the temp getting near 190 i know it is happening and i make an effort to ride harder to shake loose the wall of snow that forms.
Just my experience

You may be on to something. I think the heat exchange plays a larger role that we think.
Saturday started out at -11 degrees. Probably got cooler as we rode further away from Lake Superior. Trails hard and flat as a pancake. With scratchers down, I ran 164-177 degrees.
Lifted the scratchers, as an experiment, and coolant temperatures hovered between 185-190 degrees.
Hyfax was starting to feel sticky so I dropper the scratchers again. Coolant temperatures went back to 164-177 with no sticky feeling on the hyfax.
When conditions loosened up, scratchers were stowed and temperatures remained around 170 +/-.
180 miles for the day.
Sunday was 10+ degrees. Over 20 degrees warmer. That's when it froze up. Maybe it was partially froze when I left for the 30 mile run to Gooseberry. Parked for about 1 1/2 hours checking out the falls. Less than 1/2 hour going back is when it froze solid and heated up. No limp mode, but right at 205 with fan running, and slowly falling when I stopped.
Fortunately Yamaha has great instrumentation and engine fail safe measures in place.

 

[drumz11]

 

[tapex_07]

To the OP, I have the Cat vented side panels and haven't ever had an issue personally. But I also don't have the rad frog, I was really thinking of getting it but now I prob won't. Thanks for the heads up. Also, I have NEVER seen my temp over 174* while riding ever. Even tonight my air intake temp was down between -9* to -5* (typically its really close to ambient air temp) and the sled ran at 161-168* for the last 50 miles on hard set up snow with out scratchers. Again this was MY experience. The Skidoo XP 154x2.25 (I know its a big lug sled, but using it as a reference to the conditions tonight) in our group had some real overheating issues on that last 50. Prob had to stop 4-5 times and let it cool down.

I wonder if the icing issue is due to a more casual rider? Steady even speed, easy over the bumps, and not to crazy. I have noticed that this style tends to "build up" more tunnel snow on any sled I've seen.. I ride pretty aggressive and am thinking it knocks the build up off before it becomes any kind of issue. Thoughts??? Or am I totally off?

 

[FrozenTows4]

To the OP, I have the Cat vented side panels and haven't ever had an issue personally. But I also don't have the rad frog, I was really thinking of getting it but now I prob won't. Thanks for the heads up. Also, I have NEVER seen my temp over 174* while riding ever. Even tonight my air intake temp was down between -9* to -5* (typically its really close to ambient air temp) and the sled ran at 161-168* for the last 50 miles on hard set up snow with out scratchers. Again this was MY experience. The Skidoo XP 154x2.25 (I know its a big lug sled, but using it as a reference to the conditions tonight) in our group had some real overheating issues on that last 50. Prob had to stop 4-5 times and let it cool down.

I wonder if the icing issue is due to a more casual rider? Steady even speed, easy over the bumps, and not to crazy. I have noticed that this style tends to "build up" more tunnel snow on any sled I've seen.. I ride pretty aggressive and am thinking it knocks the build up off before it becomes any kind of issue. Thoughts??? Or am I totally off?

Thank you. Since the radiator Frog Skin is a snap on fit, this should be easy to test next time out. Unfortunately our next run is not until March 3rd to Crane Lake MN. And that's only if the predicted 40 degree temperatures do not reach that far north.

Last Friday afternoon Was a fairly constant, casual ride on extremely smooth hard trails. 20-30 mph tops due to some new, very inexperienced riders. Temperature around 0 degrees. Saturdays 180 mile run was more spirited without the new riders. Yet, everyone had moderate cooling issues due to frozen heat exchangers. Ski Doo, Cat, Polaris, it didn't matter. Temperature -10 to +10. That's what tipped me off on my Sunday 60 mile very spirited run. Only one trail section had small moguls. Evidently not enough to rattle the ice loose. Rest, flat as a pancake. Temperature +10. That's when the exchanger froze.

I just figured the radiator, while running 30-50mph, sometimes more, would be able to handle cooling alone. Frozen exchanger or not. That's why I suspect the Frog Skins are deflecting air flow. Kind of like a boat at trolling speed. Entire transom is covered with water turbulence. On plane, the transom is totally void of water contact.

One gentleman posted about over heating, with open hood louvers, when the heat exchanger froze. Another gentleman commented about running without the radiator and still cooled in ideal conditions.

This leads me to conclude that the heat exchanger may be a bigger player than the radiator. Seems odd that the radiator appears to be supplemental cooling and not primary.

I will do a true A-B-A test and share results if/when I actually get to ride again. Hopefully that will be more sooner than later.

 

[stingray719]

Thank you. Since the radiator Frog Skin is a snap on fit, this should be easy to test next time out. Unfortunately our next run is not until March 3rd to Crane Lake MN. And that's only if the predicted 40 degree temperatures do not reach that far north.

Last Friday afternoon Was a fairly constant, casual ride on extremely smooth hard trails. 20-30 mph tops due to some new, very inexperienced riders. Temperature around 0 degrees. Saturdays 180 mile run was more spirited without the new riders. Yet, everyone had moderate cooling issues due to frozen heat exchangers. Ski Doo, Cat, Polaris, it didn't matter. Temperature -10 to +10. That's what tipped me off on my Sunday 60 mile very spirited run. Only one trail section had small moguls. Evidently not enough to rattle the ice loose. Rest, flat as a pancake. Temperature +10. That's when the exchanger froze.

I just figured the radiator, while running 30-50mph, sometimes more, would be able to handle cooling alone. Frozen exchanger or not. That's why I suspect the Frog Skins are deflecting air flow. Kind of like a boat at trolling speed. Entire transom is covered with water turbulence. On plane, the transom is totally void of water contact.

One gentleman posted about over heating, with open hood louvers, when the heat exchanger froze. Another gentleman commented about running without the radiator and still cooled in ideal conditions.

This leads me to conclude that the heat exchanger may be a bigger player than the radiator. Seems odd that the radiator appears to be supplemental cooling and not primary.

I will do a true A-B-A test and share results if/when I actually get to ride again. Hopefully that will be more sooner than later.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[tapex_07]

Thank you. Since the radiator Frog Skin is a snap on fit, this should be easy to test next time out. Unfortunately our next run is not until March 3rd to Crane Lake MN. And that's only if the predicted 40 degree temperatures do not reach that far north.

Last Friday afternoon Was a fairly constant, casual ride on extremely smooth hard trails. 20-30 mph tops due to some new, very inexperienced riders. Temperature around 0 degrees. Saturdays 180 mile run was more spirited without the new riders. Yet, everyone had moderate cooling issues due to frozen heat exchangers. Ski Doo, Cat, Polaris, it didn't matter. Temperature -10 to +10. That's what tipped me off on my Sunday 60 mile very spirited run. Only one trail section had small moguls. Evidently not enough to rattle the ice loose. Rest, flat as a pancake. Temperature +10. That's when the exchanger froze.

I just figured the radiator, while running 30-50mph, sometimes more, would be able to handle cooling alone. Frozen exchanger or not. That's why I suspect the Frog Skins are deflecting air flow. Kind of like a boat at trolling speed. Entire transom is covered with water turbulence. On plane, the transom is totally void of water contact.

One gentleman posted about over heating, with open hood louvers, when the heat exchanger froze. Another gentleman commented about running without the radiator and still cooled in ideal conditions.

This leads me to conclude that the heat exchanger may be a bigger player than the radiator. Seems odd that the radiator appears to be supplemental cooling and not primary.

I will do a true A-B-A test and share results if/when I actually get to ride again. Hopefully that will be more sooner than later.

Some good info. It would be really interesting to see if you could get another ride like that with the Frog off the rad.
Eliminating one piece at a time.

 

[FrozenTows4]

I appreciate everyone's input. I will do my best to get the A-B-A test done as soon as possible. I too was wrong in labeling it a Warning right off the bat. Advisory may have been more appropriate until further testing was made.

For all that jumped the gun, and those that just watched, we should penalize ourselves with a quick 60-80 mile before sun down!

I wished that last weekend would never end.

 

[RTX]

To the OP, I have the Cat vented side panels and haven't ever had an issue personally. But I also don't have the rad frog, I was really thinking of getting it but now I prob won't. Thanks for the heads up. Also, I have NEVER seen my temp over 174* while riding ever. Even tonight my air intake temp was down between -9* to -5* (typically its really close to ambient air temp) and the sled ran at 161-168* for the last 50 miles on hard set up snow with out scratchers. Again this was MY experience. The Skidoo XP 154x2.25 (I know its a big lug sled, but using it as a reference to the conditions tonight) in our group had some real overheating issues on that last 50. Prob had to stop 4-5 times and let it cool down.

I wonder if the icing issue is due to a more casual rider? Steady even speed, easy over the bumps, and not to crazy. I have noticed that this style tends to "build up" more tunnel snow on any sled I've seen.. I ride pretty aggressive and am thinking it knocks the build up off before it becomes any kind of issue. Thoughts??? Or am I totally off?

I think riding style might play a little part in it but honestly i cant seem to put any 1 single scenario on my icing issue.
Last weekend i was riding with a few guys that were in the late 20's-early 30's they told me they hope they still ride as hard as me when they are my age "49". Ya that made me feel old, lol
Its one thing to think or say think i ride hard, its another thing when you hear it from others. So with that said, i ride this sled pretty hard.
Then again maybe i was out with a group of pussies, lol

I thought i had the problem solved for this season.
I have the rpm composite skidplate. I noticed it ran about 1.5 inches beyond the heatexchanger.
I believed this lip was what was catching snow and allowing a wall of snow to form over the heat exchanger.
Over the summer i trimmed the skidplate flush with the heatexchanger. There is no lip at all for anything to catch on.
I only have 600 miles on it this year but from what i can see there has been no improvment from removing that lip.

 

[Dirtbikekid1998]

Nothing like a quick cool 100mi and a good steak sandwich to make a guy feel better. Aah. Night

Agh I would like to say some bad words to you... We lost pretty much all the snow we had yesterday. Went from being -35F to 50f and rain in a couple days I mean what the ****.


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