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SideWinder New Motor

cannondale27 said:
Ten bucks says the old 1100Turbo has a higher CG. Just look at that old engine its HUGE. If the Head is even a inch higher than the Viper/Sidewinder and I believe the Suzuki at head is higher then the Yamaha has lower CG. Sure feels like it anyway. Balance of Viper is about perfect. 1100T feels very front heavy also every time I rode one
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Well on the Cat forums they took a 9000 Cat and a 7000 Cat. Raised on ski with a lift till it balanced, the 7000 fell over first the 9000 had a lower center of gravity, keep in mind the 9000 has a massive crank down low. The 9000 twin turbo could indeed be heavier but its COG is was lower then the Viper.
 

Sasquatch said:
Well on the Cat forums they took a 9000 Cat and a 7000 Cat. Raised on ski with a lift till it balanced, the 7000 fell over first the 9000 had a lower center of gravity, keep in mind the 9000 has a massive crank down low. The 9000 twin turbo could indeed be heavier but its COG is was lower then the Viper.
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This has been discussed. Ride them both and report back. Reason the 9000 didnt tip over in a side test is because it has a big boulder of a motor which puts a ton of weight on front end swaybar kept it from tipping over. They are full of it over on the Cat forums if they said that. Here is mine. Try this with the 1100 cat.
http://www.ty4stroke.com/threads/front-heavy-myth.131436/#post-1180437
image-jpg.101560
 
cannondale27 said:
This has been discussed. Ride them both and report back. Reason the 9000 didnt tip over in a side test is because it has a big boulder of a motor which puts a ton of weight on front end swaybar kept it from tipping over. They are full of it over on the Cat forums if they said that. Here is mine. Try this with the 1100 cat.
http://www.ty4stroke.com/threads/front-heavy-myth.131436/#post-1180437
image-jpg.101560
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Hey of course Cat owners are liars and only Yamaha owners are truthful! LOL!
 
MrSled said:
Behave..
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What more can be said, hes on front to back weight distribution and I was referring to side to side as tested by snowmobilers like you and I. I replied to the guy who said because the twin was a inch higher in total height it had a higher COG, I disagreed about the COG and why but did agree that the 1100T was probably heavier.

Then came the argument about front to rear balance which has nothing to do with COG being higher. So if Cat guys are full of it then I guess so am I!
 
I have no problem with AC guys. Ride with many of them sometimes they are just plain wrong as am I. COG is not just side to side by definition. The condition you described as being tested can easily be changed with suspension/swaybar. In the 4x4 world it's called a ramp test. It shows articulation. I have yet to jump a sled,quad or anything that felt as if it were heavy on one side or another but I have often felt front to back. The engine position of the viper was optimized for front to back COG and HIEGHT it can go no lower in this chassis. It is very neutral in the air.

I don't speak for MrSled but I imagine the reason for the warning is not the argument itself but your defense of a AC 9000. This is a Yamaha forum. I understand what you and many of us really want is a full Yamaha snowmobile. Maybe Yamaha already owns Cat? Maybe it will be next year for a new Japan model? We don't know. You have to understand that for most of us winter doesn't wait so why should we wait for Japan when they have already given us sleds built here that us owners are just crazy about? Just please try to keep an open mind and be happy for those of us who are by and large very happy with our sleds.
 
When i saw new " single shot " suspension my hope for a real yamaha japan built was OVER............
 
cannondale27 said:
I have no problem with AC guys. Ride with many of them sometimes they are just plain wrong as am I. COG is not just side to side by definition. The condition you described as being tested can easily be changed with suspension/swaybar. In the 4x4 world it's called a ramp test. It shows articulation. I have yet to jump a sled,quad or anything that felt as if it were heavy on one side or another but I have often felt front to back. The engine position of the viper was optimized for front to back COG and HEIGHT it can go no lower in this chassis. It is very neutral in the air.

I don't speak for MrSled but I imagine the reason for the warning is not the argument itself but your defense of a AC 9000. This is a Yamaha forum. I understand what you and many of us really want is a full Yamaha snowmobile. Maybe Yamaha already owns Cat? Maybe it will be next year for a new Japan model? We don't know. You have to understand that for most of us winter doesn't wait so why should we wait for Japan when they have already given us sleds built here that us owners are just crazy about? Just please try to keep an open mind and be happy for those of us who are by and large very happy with our sleds.
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Why would you say my defense of the Cat 9000? So no defending of Cat allowed! Any negative comments about Cat is allowed because they are Cats! LOL! Great Cat is junk, I'm glad we are in agreement! From this point on Cat will be read as Junk!

The engine was put where it fit in the frame. The frame was not optimized or altered in any way and is the same frame for the rest of the machines. Ah who cares, the comment was about Lower COG not balance front to back it was about side to side. You want to turn it into a Cat - YamaCat argument by saying you cant talk Cat here except to bash! I was talking/answering one motor (the 9000 twin turbo) compared to the other in the same Cat chassis based on lower COG and you want to talk about front to back balance in the air.

Further as the T-Cat/Sidewinder is not able to be tested yet, the front to back balance is just conjecture on your part and has little to do with the argument I answered to which was height of the motor and how it affected Lower COG. One inch higher has no effect on COG front to back but does have effect on COG side to side. Lower COG is also affected by the Cat Twins lower placement of the motor bringing the Crankshaft which is a heavy chunk of iron lower in the frame also affecting Lower COG.

Why you bring up what I want in a sled as part of this argument is puzzling except for maybe alienation of me personally because I'm not riding a Cat chassis and still loving my Delta Box. Please I said nothing about the Cat Chassis good or bad I was only pointing out that because the motor was taller does not necessarily equate to higher COG. If you want to disagree with me fine but keep my personal belief in Yamaha reading these threads and therefore my hopes in a Apex 4 banger sled from them out of it.

But now that its out there, if Yamaha built a new chassis and built it with the motor as low as it could go all Yamaha sleds would benefit. How can this be a bad thing? So in the end I and others like me are only trying to make improvements but somehow those who ride the Cat chassis see that as a bad thing and bashing. Yet the forum is full of bashing about the Apex and Nytro! From that a partnership was formed and a Yamaha motor dropped in a Cat chassis to which you and others are riding. See bashing Yamaha got you a new sled. So tell me how bashing the Catamaha can't give the same result. Yamaha is listening is the Buzz words. Your happy so why then can't all Yamaha riders be happy. You got your high flier, why cant I have what I want. The turbo cat was not it. I'm leaning more to a 150 160 hp NA 4 cylinder Apex a bit more like the current sled but still the Groomed trail ride I have come to love.
 
buyrite01 said:
Bottom line you don't like the SW Don't buy one! But don't get on here and post stupid stuff about this or that when nobody has been on a production model yet!
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Right. Some people just have to talk and talk and talk and talk,even tho we heard them already in 20 other threads.
 
It's simple. Yamaha needed a better all around chassis. Cat needed reliability, fit 'n' finish. The partnership works out for both companies. With each one having 1/2 the amount of production costs, 1/2 the amount of R & D they can both better their products at a faster cheaper pace. Yamaha making an 'all jap' sled is and has never been a true statement. Do even the 'all yamaha' sleds use 'all yamaha' parts? Nope. It is no different then the new found partnership between AC and Yamaha. A snowmobile is not just 1 brand and has no reason to be. Bearings, shocks, chains, heck even nuts and bolts come from different suppliers and companies. Yamaha already has a good 'groomed' trail sled or sleds if you count the Vector and the Apex. A groomed trail sled is a very small market. Now a sled that has a chassis that is good all around is a large market and is way easier and cheaper to buy from a manufacture that already has that corner of the market dialed in rather then trying to figure out how to build one yourself. AC had that and while AC had the chassis they were lacking in the electronics, power, and fit/finish. To be honest, how much of any snowmobile is actually something from the company that is lettered up on the side?....... Maybe some people just expect the 'big' parts to all come from just 1 manufacture.

Canada is a good place for a smooth riding groomed trail sled that can cruse around big swooping turns and run long smooth distances. Most other parts of the world require a more aggressive handling machine. For that reason I can fully understand why a good smooth trail sled is not a high priority on Yamaha's list.

Now for COG. COG is not just side to side or front to back its CENTER of gravity. It is how you can balance a ball on 1 point and get it to not tip over in ANY direction. I think what cannondale was getting at is that it's not all about the height of the motor placement, but also the location of it's components relative to the overall COG of the sled.

cannondale27 said: said:
Reason the 9000 didnt tip over in a side test is because it has a big boulder of a motor which puts a ton of weight on front end swaybar kept it from tipping over.
Click to expand...

True. The sway bar is there for that exact reason. To help keep the thing cornering flat. The sway bar delete kits are used for what reason? To help the sled lay over in the deep. You don't hear the mountain guys saying "hey I wish they would raise the motor higher so that I can tip this thing over easier". So why should a trail rider cry about them lowering it an inch? Back to COG and it being best to get an all around correct distribution relative to the riders position. Does the zuke or the yamaha meet that goal? Who other then the manufactures would ever know that? I am sure no aftermarket company is going to try and balance a snowmobile on 1 central point to try and see who did what better. There is no other way to test how 'tippy' something is for YOU other then to ride it. Determining on how easy it tips depends not solely on where they stuck the motor. It depends on the setup/person riding it/ seating position/ amount of fuel currently in the tank/ if you are on a down grade with said fuel sloshing forward or up hill with the fuel sloshing to the back of the tank...

No one here should care who rides what. All that matters is that whoever is riding a machine, that that person and that person alone be happy with it. If you are not, there are many models/manufactures that are willing to let you give them a shot. Ride what you like and not what you are 'supposed' to like. Just don't come to a forum and try to tell people that the topic of the forum is not the best way to go. If someone wants to know why something other then the SW is better then they can always go to said 'other' products forum to find out why people think it is a better product. That is why it is ok to flame OTHER products in the SW forum, but not the SW.
 
Wow talk about blown out of proportion! K I get it you guys don't like me, its become personal. Anything I say no matter how benign will of course be twisted to mean I hate the Sidewinder. It started as a comment on the Cat twin which I did not bring up compared to the Viper, both Cat chassis machines. I answered with no malice what so ever, looking at the reply's though I've done nothing but bash the Sidewinder. Ok maybe I was drawn in on the last post, my love for a different sled was brought up, again I replied trying to point out that all of us are no different from each other. I've been shown I'm wrong! Man talk about a lot of thin skinned people. I like sleds I like almost all sleds. I like Cats. I like Yamaha's. So why the problem?
 
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