Spent a great weekend at my buddy's lake last weekend riding and tuning. Tried the rats first, using his sled as the control sled. I have air box mod and 23/38 gearing, 2000 miles on sled. Conditions, damn near perfect -15C, good base on lake. Length of run at least 1000ft. to a mile.
Secondary Yammy white spring , stock helix.
Rats had the 2.5 gram ball no extra weights as recommended. 70.0 gr. total
Rpm 10,100 climbed to 10,250, marked clutch shift out with in 1/4"of the top. I got the hole shot (I'm picked, he's not) but he has caught up by 60 and is driving away at 80. Top speed 102.
Trail riding, they(the rats) seemed to slam the clutch hard after backshifting when I got back on the gas.
How can I improve their performance?
Dalton"s 68.4 gr.
Rpm 10,500-700 with in 1/4"of top of sheave.
A little better hole shot same results on the mid and top end.
Much better trail manners.
top speed 104
Secondary no changes.
How can I improve top end?
He has a mono, I have pro act skid and I am spotting at least 80-100 lb. He is always the fastest in our group of riders, so not realistically thinking I'll beat him, but working hard to be number two!
Both weights seem to be allowing the primary to shift fully,
Y/S/Y had best results also tried O/P/O with rats (as recommended by Bender) rpm just barely got to 10,000.
Is there any more I can do in the primary or should I look to the secondary for improvement?
Learning as I go! Looking for some "Turk" like straight answers.
Secondary Yammy white spring , stock helix.
Rats had the 2.5 gram ball no extra weights as recommended. 70.0 gr. total
Rpm 10,100 climbed to 10,250, marked clutch shift out with in 1/4"of the top. I got the hole shot (I'm picked, he's not) but he has caught up by 60 and is driving away at 80. Top speed 102.
Trail riding, they(the rats) seemed to slam the clutch hard after backshifting when I got back on the gas.
How can I improve their performance?
Dalton"s 68.4 gr.
Rpm 10,500-700 with in 1/4"of top of sheave.
A little better hole shot same results on the mid and top end.
Much better trail manners.
top speed 104
Secondary no changes.
How can I improve top end?
He has a mono, I have pro act skid and I am spotting at least 80-100 lb. He is always the fastest in our group of riders, so not realistically thinking I'll beat him, but working hard to be number two!
Both weights seem to be allowing the primary to shift fully,
Y/S/Y had best results also tried O/P/O with rats (as recommended by Bender) rpm just barely got to 10,000.
Is there any more I can do in the primary or should I look to the secondary for improvement?
Learning as I go! Looking for some "Turk" like straight answers.
snowdust
TY 4 Stroke Guru
I don't know of any clutching that will get you more top end and the mono is faster on top than you are already. In my experience the clutch kits out there will give you better hole shot and mid, but nobody has been able to stay with the stock weights on top. If I were you I would be more tempted to dial in the stock weights if longer lake racing is your thing. The best I have found for overall performance is the two-speed weights that Turk always liked. I am trying, but currently they still are a little slower than stock on top. It takes a pretty long run to catch them though. I do run a cobra track as well which really helps traction, but isn't necessarily a top end track.
baggs66
VIP Member
You adjust the primary to get your rpm's, I would say your weights are to heavy, you want to go to 10300-10500 on hole shot and pull to 10800-10900 on top. The secondary is your effisioncy, the white spring is to heavy for top speed and will cause the abrupt up and down shift, go to the pink spring, this will smooth out your shifting but will also lower your rpm's but let your clutches shift out faster, you will probably need a lower helix angle also, I run a 46-36 helix with my d&F's and it works very well. Bender should be able to tell you what helix will work best for these weights. Hope this helps some.
yamadog1
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
rats
bender says 10200-10400, i use o-s-o 2.5 ball stock helix i see
10500, both clutches are cool, you may want to try silver sec. at 6-3.
if you can get in touch with scott at boss he could help.
last year he had some using 3.0 ball but i could not pull it and i have y/charger.
i like 2 speeds and d-flys with d-flys i need more traction. 2 speeds work well in trail.
also weight is a big factor in this game.
bender says 10200-10400, i use o-s-o 2.5 ball stock helix i see
10500, both clutches are cool, you may want to try silver sec. at 6-3.
if you can get in touch with scott at boss he could help.
last year he had some using 3.0 ball but i could not pull it and i have y/charger.
i like 2 speeds and d-flys with d-flys i need more traction. 2 speeds work well in trail.
also weight is a big factor in this game.
FireStone
Pro
70gr is a little bit heavy for a curved flyweight.
And as yamadog said, the silver spring at 6-3 is good for a lot of setup.
The springs choice of Ulmer is good, so the O-P-O with the primary maybe good too.
And as yamadog said, the silver spring at 6-3 is good for a lot of setup.
The springs choice of Ulmer is good, so the O-P-O with the primary maybe good too.
Firestone, 70gr. is the lightest you can set up the Rats, smallest ball, no added plugs. tried O/P/O initially and barely got to 10,000.
yamadog, I'll pick up a silver secondary to take to the lake next weekend and try some runs with it. Do you think the lighter sec. spring will help the Rats with slamming the primary after back shift? Did your washers fit that they supplied with the kit, mine are too thick? I reused the stock ones but there is slop in the weights, wondering if this affects performance.
baggs66, I have the stock pink secondary, what do you think I should set degrees at 60,70,80,90? I feel I am closer on the primary for target rpm, with the Daltons and I wondering if the secondary is the better place to look for improvement.
Thanks guys, I appreciate all the suggestions and help. Yes weight (mine)and drag (I am 6'3, so I don't fit behind a mid windshield very well) are a factor, but I love this engine so naturally I think it can overcome all obstacles, even my extra baggage!! Make no mistake my buddy's is a very well set up sled he has been doing this for over 40 years, but it is a very good yardstick to compare to. We (my riding buddies) all have our weasle parts under the hood, but as you know, no two sleds are the same, what works for one will not necessarily work as well for another. It takes alot of tuning time to get it right or close, with such low snow this year, the lakes have some of the best conditions as the trails are a bit of a crap shoot. Normally 90% of my riding is trail and about 10% lake, so trailability is a very high priority. That being said, I don't like looking at the competitions snow flap going across the lake.
yamadog, I'll pick up a silver secondary to take to the lake next weekend and try some runs with it. Do you think the lighter sec. spring will help the Rats with slamming the primary after back shift? Did your washers fit that they supplied with the kit, mine are too thick? I reused the stock ones but there is slop in the weights, wondering if this affects performance.
baggs66, I have the stock pink secondary, what do you think I should set degrees at 60,70,80,90? I feel I am closer on the primary for target rpm, with the Daltons and I wondering if the secondary is the better place to look for improvement.
Thanks guys, I appreciate all the suggestions and help. Yes weight (mine)and drag (I am 6'3, so I don't fit behind a mid windshield very well) are a factor, but I love this engine so naturally I think it can overcome all obstacles, even my extra baggage!! Make no mistake my buddy's is a very well set up sled he has been doing this for over 40 years, but it is a very good yardstick to compare to. We (my riding buddies) all have our weasle parts under the hood, but as you know, no two sleds are the same, what works for one will not necessarily work as well for another. It takes alot of tuning time to get it right or close, with such low snow this year, the lakes have some of the best conditions as the trails are a bit of a crap shoot. Normally 90% of my riding is trail and about 10% lake, so trailability is a very high priority. That being said, I don't like looking at the competitions snow flap going across the lake.
yamadog1
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
rat
i used washers from d-fly or 2 speeds, you can get smaller balls 2.0 1.5, if need to gain 500r's get a smaller ball then start over.
rats, d-flys, 2 speeds all from the same family.
i used washers from d-fly or 2 speeds, you can get smaller balls 2.0 1.5, if need to gain 500r's get a smaller ball then start over.
rats, d-flys, 2 speeds all from the same family.
snowdust
TY 4 Stroke Guru
Did you ever run the stock weights against this buddy to get a baseline to see if you are making it faster with the weights you are trying? It's very easy to make these sleds slower if the aftermarket stuff isn't dialed in.
When I initially had got the sled, I ran the stock set up, my buddy and I ran when we had the opportunity, I was 3rd to 4th out of 5 sleds. Two yammies, three polaris (those, with different degrees of weasle mods) by the end of last season I had 1800 miles on the sled, with a gear change and daltons, white secondary, and airbox mod, I was a strong hole shot by 2-3 lengths with only the Yammy coming past at 80, so I am pretty sure I've gotten stronger. This last weekend was the first time trying the Rats. Had them all day Sat, testing in the morning, then ride for 110 miles in afternoon in varying conditions. Put the daltons back in Sun. with a little more tip weight to see if the topend would improve, but it didn't. so now I'm looking at the secondary.
I'll look for the smaller ball bearings for the rats and ask about thinner washers, hope they can get north of the border before the season ends. Sled now has 2100 mi. and getting stronger every day. Thanks guys.
I'll look for the smaller ball bearings for the rats and ask about thinner washers, hope they can get north of the border before the season ends. Sled now has 2100 mi. and getting stronger every day. Thanks guys.
baggs66
VIP Member
I would run the pink at 60 or70 and the silver at 80 or 90, you may have to run bigger rollers with the rats to raise rpm and slow the shift if they are to aggressive and usually need less helix angle with heavy weights. Not sure where your engagement is but I gained 3 sled lengths by lowering mine to 33-3400 rpm and letting it hook up, I have 192 pics and tip the scales about 300lbs. And mine wiil pull hard to 112 MPH and then creep up from their. Clutch to tourqe curve for acc. And peak rpms for top end.
Grimm
TY 4 Stroke God
Just and fyi 779cookies, I called Bender about a Canadian distributor, and they mentioned that there is a Bender Racing Canada around London Ontario.
baggs66
VIP Member
779 I went and looked at my sled tonight, it's been a couple years since I set mine up and could remember what sec. Spring I am running, it is the silver spring and I'm using y-p-y primary with the d&F's. Just thought I would let you know
Talked to Bender(usa) yesterday, with mixed results. About getting the smaller ball bearings for the Rats, he said to go to a hardware store and get smaller ones.(why they are not supplied with the kit is beyond me! At $285.95 US with shipping!) The plastic washers that are too thick, he said file them down.(again this kit is supposed to be Apex specific!) He recommended HC yellow(not sure what the numbers are for it) with a 30 twist and 53/33-5 helix, but they are also up north testing set ups and have not got results back. Got the smaller ball bearing yesterday from a local bearing supplier and ordered a silver yammy spring, will be here next week. As far as all the heel clicker springs and weights I've already got 2 sets of adjustable weights for this sled, it was not my intention to become a weight and spring collector!(although over the years it certainly looks like it!) I think I'll work with what I have, and try and get the best combination. As always, thanks for all the input.
Cookie
Cookie
Grimm
TY 4 Stroke God
My kit came with several ball bearings of several sizes/weight. What size were you looking for? Seems counterproductive to go too small of a bearing...goes against the marketing of the clutch weight.
As I read more and experienced myself, the Rat weights were rushed to market by Bender...many are experiencing too high of an engagement rpm and many can't hit peak rpms.
As I read more and experienced myself, the Rat weights were rushed to market by Bender...many are experiencing too high of an engagement rpm and many can't hit peak rpms.
So did mine, as I said in previous post, I was using the smallest ball supplied, no plugs.
"Y/S/Y had best results also tried O/P/O with rats (as recommended by Bender) rpm just barely got to 10,000."
My point was there are more balls available, they just don't include them. The plastic washers that are supposed to be filed to make them fit!?!? Still haven't figured out how I'll do that 6 times consistantly. How do you hold a washer to file it?!!
Sorry about double posting attachment, first time trying that, kind of screwed it up, don't know how to remove second one.
Anyways, off to the lake to try the pink in secondary and my new smaller balls(don't like the sound of that!) Let you know Monday how it went.
"Y/S/Y had best results also tried O/P/O with rats (as recommended by Bender) rpm just barely got to 10,000."
My point was there are more balls available, they just don't include them. The plastic washers that are supposed to be filed to make them fit!?!? Still haven't figured out how I'll do that 6 times consistantly. How do you hold a washer to file it?!!
Sorry about double posting attachment, first time trying that, kind of screwed it up, don't know how to remove second one.
Anyways, off to the lake to try the pink in secondary and my new smaller balls(don't like the sound of that!) Let you know Monday how it went.
