Sasquatch
Lifetime Member
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2004
- Messages
- 3,699
- Location
- North Western Ontario
- Website
- www.dptc.com
- Country
- Canada
- Snowmobile
- Yamaha's
Here is my take on it. I am a little pissed about a 16,000 dollar sled selling in the US for 12,000. Dollar is close to par and has been for a year.
Taxes whatever a 25% hike is just a pile of crap! I'm considering buying a year old sled in the US for near half the price of a new one in Canada. I'm not considering buying a new sled at all on this side of the border anytime soon.
Incentives are not what I want or really need. What I want and need is a 20% reduction in sleds prices. I'll give them the 5%. Plus I need a 3 year no BS warentee. 1 year is a joke!
As the dollar fell the price of sleds went up because they claimed the price was tied to the dollar. Now as the dollar climbs they side step and wiggle and squirm and keep the prices the overinflated. All of a sudden the price is not tied to the dollar anymore and every excuse in the book is trailed before the Canadian public.
Even a 1500 hundred dollar discount is only a 10% drop in price. They jacked the price up that much in the last two or three years alone. Every year for the past 10 plus years the price of sleds have climbed at a higher rate then the US sleds. This was blamed on the weaker Canadian dollar. Well the dollar is not weaker anymore!
Ski-Doo, Polaris, Arctic Cat, Yamaha all have on thing in common. Thier prices soured as the Dollar fell and soured quickly. As the dollar rose however the prices magicly found new reasons to stay inflated. Something is rotten in Canada and its mostly the CEO's overinflated salarys!
End of rant!
Taxes whatever a 25% hike is just a pile of crap! I'm considering buying a year old sled in the US for near half the price of a new one in Canada. I'm not considering buying a new sled at all on this side of the border anytime soon.
Incentives are not what I want or really need. What I want and need is a 20% reduction in sleds prices. I'll give them the 5%. Plus I need a 3 year no BS warentee. 1 year is a joke!
As the dollar fell the price of sleds went up because they claimed the price was tied to the dollar. Now as the dollar climbs they side step and wiggle and squirm and keep the prices the overinflated. All of a sudden the price is not tied to the dollar anymore and every excuse in the book is trailed before the Canadian public.
Even a 1500 hundred dollar discount is only a 10% drop in price. They jacked the price up that much in the last two or three years alone. Every year for the past 10 plus years the price of sleds have climbed at a higher rate then the US sleds. This was blamed on the weaker Canadian dollar. Well the dollar is not weaker anymore!
Ski-Doo, Polaris, Arctic Cat, Yamaha all have on thing in common. Thier prices soured as the Dollar fell and soured quickly. As the dollar rose however the prices magicly found new reasons to stay inflated. Something is rotten in Canada and its mostly the CEO's overinflated salarys!
End of rant!
NytroFever
Newbie
Reaper said:
?? What has the Euro got to do with the Japanese Yen??
Please explain??
NytroFever
Newbie
Tork said:
Are you seriously trying to score some bonus points or something??
You actually believe that BS about a smaller market??
Of course Canada has a smaller market....the yamaha Corporate Machine in Canada is smaller... smaller infrastructure, as you call it... means cheaper to operate!
They operated just fine when our dollar was worth .80 cents usd..... their sales are up and our dollar is 20% more.
They are raking in the cash this year. They are getting upwards of $3000 more for a sled here in canada.....
and you sit there and type....corporate taxes...gross revenue... blah blah..
So what are the difference between Yamaha US tax rates and Yamaha Canada???
What are the forecasts of gross revenue??
Sasquatch I am impressed with your take on the situation and I couldnt agree more. You should send that post to Sled Talk. Tork going by your own post on the facts of Yamaha. The amount of sled sales in Canada is just slightly half of the sales of the US. So yes I can see charging us a bit more for the cost of doing business in Canada. But what a lot of people dont understand is Canadians are sick and tired of being raped by corporation after corp because of our old dollars weakness. Well its not weak anymore and we are not asking any longer, we are demanding the prices to go lower.
Yammerhead
Expert
Yamaha Motor Co in Canada and the US are run as separtate companies are they not? If this is the case, then the USD value would not have any affect on the costs and profitability of Yamaha Motor Canada. YMC would be buying product from Yamaha Japan. A comparison to the Yen is more applicable than comparing to the USD. If you look at the Yen vs the CAD for the last year, the CAD has risen around 10%. Is that not approximately what the rebates were for Canadian sleds? I think YMC HAS given back the money gained by the rising CAD. It just looks bad because the USD has lost more ground to the CAD than is has the Yen.
Also, if you guys think that YMC cost of doing business is the same or less than YMUS, I will beg to differ.
Today, the market level price in Canda is higher than the US. Lots of reason's for it. There is no law saying YMC has to meet YMUS price levels. Frankly, if YMC's sales and market share numbers are growing, then it would be a bad business decision to drop their prices. If you do the math dropping their operating margins by a SMALL percentage will require a VERY LARGE increase in volume to make the same money at the end of the day. In an industry with 4 strong competitors, you would never steal enough volume to justify it. It is a big balanciing act for any manufacturer. If YMC continues to keep their Canadian prices up, then they will continue to lose sales to cross border shopping. In the short term it may not affect them much with our strong economy driving sales. In the long term it could come back to bite them in the bum.
Also, if you guys think that YMC cost of doing business is the same or less than YMUS, I will beg to differ.
- *Canada has two languages to operate with and print materials for.
*Canada has a larger geographical area with fewer people. *Transportation costs, oprations costs, etc will all be more.
*I am no tax expert, but I am almost certain that tax rates in Canada are higher as well. I know the company I work for operates that way.
*The US sled market is roughly double that of Canada. YMUS would likely qualify for more volume discounts and rebates than YMC would.
Today, the market level price in Canda is higher than the US. Lots of reason's for it. There is no law saying YMC has to meet YMUS price levels. Frankly, if YMC's sales and market share numbers are growing, then it would be a bad business decision to drop their prices. If you do the math dropping their operating margins by a SMALL percentage will require a VERY LARGE increase in volume to make the same money at the end of the day. In an industry with 4 strong competitors, you would never steal enough volume to justify it. It is a big balanciing act for any manufacturer. If YMC continues to keep their Canadian prices up, then they will continue to lose sales to cross border shopping. In the short term it may not affect them much with our strong economy driving sales. In the long term it could come back to bite them in the bum.
Daranello
Suspended
When a Canadian dealer can buy a US sled for retail cheaper than they buy the sled wholesale from yamaha canada theres a problem.....1000s of sled are being bought south of the border (I bought 5 Apex this year in the US) and being brought back to Canada,,,
Porsche, Audi, Chrysler, Walmart ect..... have all adjusted prices....its time now for Yamaha Canada to support there dealer...and give them a level playing feild......
P.S. Corp taxs are NOT more in Canada than the US...GST was brought in to pass on the corp tax to the end user....so take our prices and add 13% sales tax....
Porsche, Audi, Chrysler, Walmart ect..... have all adjusted prices....its time now for Yamaha Canada to support there dealer...and give them a level playing feild......
P.S. Corp taxs are NOT more in Canada than the US...GST was brought in to pass on the corp tax to the end user....so take our prices and add 13% sales tax....
morrisond
Expert
All canadians should go on the Sled Talk blog and make there opinion known, I don't mind paying 10% more for the convenience of buying an sled in Canada but that's about it.
http://snowmobiles.yamahablogs.ca/
Where this really hurts Canadian Dealers is on Parts. Our Parts are at least 50% more than in the states. It is so easy now to order parts/accessories from the states and have them shipped up. Who cares about Warranty on parts.
Between myself, my father and my uncle we have 6 4 stroke Yammies, I think so far this year we have ordered about $3,000 of parts out of the States(belts, filters, clothing, some parts to replace trailrash from loaning sleds etc) We saved over $1,500 and our local dealer probably lost out on $1,000 of profit at least.
Talk to dealers, they make way more money on parts and service than selling new sleds, this is what will probably finally force Yammie Canada to change.
I want my local dealer to stay and remain profitable, but when on average we buy 2-3 sleds per year and have the rig to haul them an quick trip over the border sounds appealing, especially when you can save $10,000-$12,000 between the three. That pays for an lot of little warranty parts that you wouldn't go back across the border for. Not that the US dealer wouldn't ship it to you anyways.
In my opinion as Yammie generally gets it right on things like engine durability the Warranty isn't worth anything anyways as you don't really need it!
http://snowmobiles.yamahablogs.ca/
Where this really hurts Canadian Dealers is on Parts. Our Parts are at least 50% more than in the states. It is so easy now to order parts/accessories from the states and have them shipped up. Who cares about Warranty on parts.
Between myself, my father and my uncle we have 6 4 stroke Yammies, I think so far this year we have ordered about $3,000 of parts out of the States(belts, filters, clothing, some parts to replace trailrash from loaning sleds etc) We saved over $1,500 and our local dealer probably lost out on $1,000 of profit at least.
Talk to dealers, they make way more money on parts and service than selling new sleds, this is what will probably finally force Yammie Canada to change.
I want my local dealer to stay and remain profitable, but when on average we buy 2-3 sleds per year and have the rig to haul them an quick trip over the border sounds appealing, especially when you can save $10,000-$12,000 between the three. That pays for an lot of little warranty parts that you wouldn't go back across the border for. Not that the US dealer wouldn't ship it to you anyways.
In my opinion as Yammie generally gets it right on things like engine durability the Warranty isn't worth anything anyways as you don't really need it!
Tork
TY 4 Stroke God
with a par dollar I am not saying that Canadian sleds should cost 30% more. But 4-8% could be realistic, it would take a lot of accounting info to determine that. I wish the prices were the same for you guys, but it may not happen for legit reasons.
Tork
TY 4 Stroke God
Here might be an example
honda civic dx CA $16,990
honda civic dx US $15,110
havent checked item for item but the CA could have a bit more equipment lets say $500 worth. There you go, 8% more. Rape or is the cost of doing business higher?
honda civic dx CA $16,990
honda civic dx US $15,110
havent checked item for item but the CA could have a bit more equipment lets say $500 worth. There you go, 8% more. Rape or is the cost of doing business higher?
Most of us that realize the extra costs of doing business in a larger country with less population with smaller sales with a par dollar can deal with a sled costing a bit more. The problem is like sasquatch has pointed out they are unwilling to drop the prices here to reflect the buying power of our dollar going up the same way the price of goods went up here when our dollars buying power was going down. Corporate GREED at its best and this last sled was built with a strong cnd dollar will be interesting to see where they peg it for cost vs the USA price. The old inventory cost us more excuse cant be used any longer with the new sleds.
Tork
TY 4 Stroke God
The point also I am trying to make is no prices I have seen yet on the 09's we simply dont know at this time, we hope for the best.
I would put your lobby group efforts along the line of "we demand fair pricing" if you are demanding par pricing, that may not be possible. And corporate think may be we arent going to make these guys happy anyway we might as well price at 115%
I would put your lobby group efforts along the line of "we demand fair pricing" if you are demanding par pricing, that may not be possible. And corporate think may be we arent going to make these guys happy anyway we might as well price at 115%
morrisond
Expert
The other big thing that hurts Canadians is resale value.
An Apex costs us $15,000 up here, after one year your lucky to get $7-8,000 in trade after an year. That is is major loss, call it $7,000.
Our used market reflects the fact that brand new sleds can be bought in the U.S. for not much more than CDN used and used U.S. ones are significantly cheaper as well.
It's just not right. The used market is telling us these sleds aren't worth $15,000, as Turk mentioned you can buy an Honda Car for that much money.
If Yammie Canada are so confident in the Value of there Product i would be happy to lease one for an year at capital loss as the same as the U.S., call it $3,000, I would even pay the interest on the $15,000...
An Apex costs us $15,000 up here, after one year your lucky to get $7-8,000 in trade after an year. That is is major loss, call it $7,000.
Our used market reflects the fact that brand new sleds can be bought in the U.S. for not much more than CDN used and used U.S. ones are significantly cheaper as well.
It's just not right. The used market is telling us these sleds aren't worth $15,000, as Turk mentioned you can buy an Honda Car for that much money.
If Yammie Canada are so confident in the Value of there Product i would be happy to lease one for an year at capital loss as the same as the U.S., call it $3,000, I would even pay the interest on the $15,000...
morrisond
Expert
On the good side Chris Reid on Yamablog acknowledges that this is an big issue for many consumers and they are looking at it. Hopefully they take the next five weeks to come up with some significant cuts.
If I was running Yammie Canada I would use the high Canadian Dollar as an opportunity to put an significant hurt on Doo, Polaris and Cat in canada and go after market share big time.
It's time for Yammie to regain the number one spot(at least in Canada), I doubt they'll ever have an better opportunity especially if they do round out there line with an 100 Hp sled and an new Bravo, Upgrades to the Apex(power steering and 10+hp), and EFI on the Ventures/Vectors. They would sell an lot of sleds at 20% off last years prices.
I would make my annoucement one day after the others annouced there pricing.
If I was running Yammie Canada I would use the high Canadian Dollar as an opportunity to put an significant hurt on Doo, Polaris and Cat in canada and go after market share big time.
It's time for Yammie to regain the number one spot(at least in Canada), I doubt they'll ever have an better opportunity especially if they do round out there line with an 100 Hp sled and an new Bravo, Upgrades to the Apex(power steering and 10+hp), and EFI on the Ventures/Vectors. They would sell an lot of sleds at 20% off last years prices.
I would make my annoucement one day after the others annouced there pricing.
Daranello
Suspended
The best "lobby group" is when you buy south of the border and then call yamaha canada for the recall clearance letter.....I bet its now a full time job for one employee.
I saved over $6,000 buying my new Attak in the USA...
And $7,000 buying my polaris RZR.
So $13,000 in one trip!!!
Two days ago bought a 2007 Audi A6 and saved over $25,000. BTW. Audi does NoT cancel the warrenty like Yamaha does!
PS. Canada not litigation happy like the US...so costs start to ballance out quite well. Lots of auto makers say it cheaper to make cars in Canada vs. The USA, so I don't buy it more expensive to do buisness in Canada
I saved over $6,000 buying my new Attak in the USA...
And $7,000 buying my polaris RZR.
So $13,000 in one trip!!!
Two days ago bought a 2007 Audi A6 and saved over $25,000. BTW. Audi does NoT cancel the warrenty like Yamaha does!
PS. Canada not litigation happy like the US...so costs start to ballance out quite well. Lots of auto makers say it cheaper to make cars in Canada vs. The USA, so I don't buy it more expensive to do buisness in Canada
Yammerhead
Expert
Daranello said:
I work for a multinational company that has Canadian and US operations. The executive shared some numbers with us that showed cost of sales in Canada to be significantly higher than the US. I'm not in the powersports industry, but I think the comarison for the cost of a sales force would be valid.
I just bought an RV in the US yesterday and saved almost 40% over what I would have paid here. I would have paid some premium to buy here, but not that much. The local RV dealer was having a show this week and it was busy and he very happy with how many RV's he had sold. If he can sell them for that price, then good for him. I actually like it that he is keeping the market levels up. The guys like us can go down to the states, buy cheap and then sell our toys for what we paid for them a few years down the road.
