Super Sled
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2lapsdown said:The problem with Yamaha is not their engines. It is, and always has been, their inability to make a competent chassis. They have always been at least a generation behind.....couch said:AKrider said:Sledfreak,
From what I've experienced, a stock 600 2-stroke can run rings around a heavy, turbo charged 4-strokes in deep snow in the trees or technical areas. If a guy is into hanging out in the treeless bowls and only climbs chutes and high marks than by all mean, get a turbo 4-stroke. What I always thought was funny is I could get into the same areas as the turbo sleds on my stock, econobox, base model RMK 600. To me they are a better value for the money, but that's me. To each his own.
I think there is a big market for a Yamaha 2-stroke. They know how to build reliable engines. In any case, I'm just waiting for snow and if I can't ride, posting about sleds is a good way to pass the time.
Agreed but personally, I believe that the biggest part of the problem is the chassis design & balance - the Nytro motor in the pro rmk (posted on snowest) is only 20 / 25 lbs more than stock! I don't think that a 600 / 700 /800 in a Nytro chassis would be substantially better that the same chassis with a 4 stroke! Yamaha has to get its act together - re chassis design - before I would purchase a new Yamaha sled in either 2 or 4 stroke.
Very true. Except right now they are like three generations behind on all their chassis, except for the Viper that is.
And I would really like to see Yamaha have a 2 stroke choice, for those of us who want one.
SRXSRULE2
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Super Sled said:2lapsdown said:The problem with Yamaha is not their engines. It is, and always has been, their inability to make a competent chassis. They have always been at least a generation behind.....couch said:AKrider said:Sledfreak,
From what I've experienced, a stock 600 2-stroke can run rings around a heavy, turbo charged 4-strokes in deep snow in the trees or technical areas. If a guy is into hanging out in the treeless bowls and only climbs chutes and high marks than by all mean, get a turbo 4-stroke. What I always thought was funny is I could get into the same areas as the turbo sleds on my stock, econobox, base model RMK 600. To me they are a better value for the money, but that's me. To each his own.
I think there is a big market for a Yamaha 2-stroke. They know how to build reliable engines. In any case, I'm just waiting for snow and if I can't ride, posting about sleds is a good way to pass the time.
Agreed but personally, I believe that the biggest part of the problem is the chassis design & balance - the Nytro motor in the pro rmk (posted on snowest) is only 20 / 25 lbs more than stock! I don't think that a 600 / 700 /800 in a Nytro chassis would be substantially better that the same chassis with a 4 stroke! Yamaha has to get its act together - re chassis design - before I would purchase a new Yamaha sled in either 2 or 4 stroke.
Very true. Except right now they are like three generations behind on all their chassis, except for the Viper that is.
And I would really like to see Yamaha have a 2 stroke choice, for those of us who want one.
I agree. Cat and Doo both have both ends of the spectrum covered with 2&4 stroke machines. Even though Poo doesn't have much on the 4 stroke side they still seam to have a big chunk of the market with their chassis development. Giving sledders a choice of 2 or 4 and different displacement offerings gives the consumer options. Offering 4 strokes was probably one of the smartest moves by Doo. Not offering a 2 stroke and not updating their chassis for a number of years is what killed Yamaha's sales. Can't say you have the best 4 stroke anymore (they do engine wise) when you can buy a 4 stroke in a better performing chassis elsewhere. I think the cat partnership will change a lot, not sure we'll see a 2 stroke though.
couch said:
Do you have a link to that sled? I think a hybrid like that would be worlds better than a Nytro or DB II chassis but if the 4-stroke motor is still weighing down the front end, it won't be as nimble, balanced or handle as well as the same Pro-RMK with a 2-stroke. My RMK is very well balanced. Aside from better long term reliability, I don't see an advantage to having a Nytro motor up front unless a guy is into boost. Even then, seems likes there are plenty of guys who are happy with a boosted Polaris 800 and I'd think that was a ticking time bomb if there ever was one.
To be better than the 2strokes at there games with a 4stroke both the motor and chassis would have to be totally redesigned. Maybe it just cannot be done? I dont know. A 2stroke would be the easiest and quite possibly the only way to do it. Heck they could even accomplish almost everything with a 2 stroke stuffed into the existing Phazer if not for the issue of what to do with the exhaust.
Teamblue4
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I love my 07 RTX 4-stroke.
couch
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AKrider said:
Link below!
http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/show ... p?t=345228
Sounds / looks like a great platform. If / when the motor in my new pro packs it in, I'll likely look for a nytro as a donor and so the same thing!
Nice.Love my Apex gt that is not stock,engine yes.love my 2-smokes as well ! but for winter trail rides up north,i will never go out on 2-smoker again.Teamblue4 said:
2lapsdown
Expert
After watching the phazer get annihilated by The sp500 for the last 4 years, and only be competitive with old 440 fanners in the USCC/USXC before that, I would go in a completely different direction. The chassis is everything...cannondale27 said:
couch said:
That is a great project and shows a lot of potential. I don't believe the 30lb weight difference between the Nytro motor and a 600 Liberty 2-stroke though. Something is missing in that comparison IMO. I wouldn't try and pick up a Nytro motor out of the sled and carry it to my bench. I did exactly that with my IQR 600 motor and it was very manageable. (Of course I had to do that because it did the usual 2-stroke thing and broke)
It's interesting to see how high the bottom of the motor sits off the bulkhead. The stock 2-stroke twin sits down inside. This project sled has the same high motor placement as the Viper. He mentioned it tipped easier and I believe that is due to the higher center of gravity. Even if the Nytro motor was mounted at the same height off the bulkhead as the stock 2-stroke it would still have a higher CG due to the overall height of the 4-stroke being taller than a 2-stroke. Back in the spring of '12 I would have thought this hybrid would be the best combination available. But now after riding my RMK for a season I'm not all that excited.
Take a step back and realize that Yamaha and Cat have done the exact same thing with the Pro-cross/Pro-climb chassis at the factory. The Viper motor sits higher off the bulkhead than it does in the Nytro. They also had issues with the backwards exhaust. I've ridden a couple turbo charged Pro-climb 1100's and while they hide their weight much better than a Nytro, there is no doubt they are heavier up front. The 1100T feels heavy and slow to react compared to my 600. A non-turbo Nytro motor would be lighter than an 1100T but it is still heavy and you've got a triple cylinder motor acting like a bigger gyroscope compared to a smaller/lighter 2-stroke twin. Gyroscopes resist movement so if that trait is even more present in a particular engine, it will cause the sled to feel and handle differently.
I'll have to follow that thread to see what they ended up thinking about the sled. It is unique but I think a guy would be better off with a Viper. Long track it if a guy wants a 4-stroke mountain sled.
2lapsdown said:
Reread what I posted. I agree with you except the Phazer Chassis is a great chassis but the 4stroke motor cripples it for racing. The 2 stroke motor placed low is the one thing missing.
2lapsdown
Expert
If you like the Phaser chassis, that is completely your right! It's a free country! I agree that a light weight, laydown 2 stroke need to be an option.cannondale27 said:
I'm kind of thinking a lay down, opposed 4-stroke might be the ticket? Kind of like a Subaru flat 4 but with 2 cylinders lopped off. Get that heavier engine way down low and back in the chassis and the weight won't be as noticeable.
I just got a new sled magazine and it said the wet weight of a '13 Indy 600 SP is 609lbs. It also has a 11.5 gallon tank. I forgot, what is a short track Nytro's wet weight? I know my RMK felt like a complete feather compared to my Nytro. The base RMK is just a long track Indy.
I just got a new sled magazine and it said the wet weight of a '13 Indy 600 SP is 609lbs. It also has a 11.5 gallon tank. I forgot, what is a short track Nytro's wet weight? I know my RMK felt like a complete feather compared to my Nytro. The base RMK is just a long track Indy.
Paraclete said:
X LUCKY #13
WE HAVE COME TO FAR TO GO BACK NOW....I lov the 4 Strokes....ZOOM ZOOM ZOOOM
SRXSRULE2
Expert
AKrider said:
I was checking weights also, the 600 SBA 144 (460) is 70 lbs lighter than the new viper 137 deluxe(530) dry to dry, but lists the SE model at 549 dry? Something wrong there. I would have thought the se would be lighter since it has less stuff on it and the floats.
AKrider said:
I think the 08 RTX was 520lbs dry....I'm guessing full of fuel it just over 600lbs.....so comparable to any 2 stroke....the issue is the heavy engine placement over the skis....but many people say that the Skinz front end makes a huge difference, also relocating the rear skid back 4" also makes a world of difference. The race sled they built the past 2 seasons is the way it should have been built from day one....I here they are leaps and bounds better than the stock Nytro.
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