(Season 2013-14) TY Mileage – Yellowknife

[Yellowknife]

Here's the next episode...

2014 Snowmobile Season: Episode Seven: Viper Troubleshooting HD (720p)

Video Description: Explaining the circumstances around the 'cold-no-start' issues with the Viper, taking readings and testing/troubleshooting the Viper at -42 C at the dealership with the mechanic, testing continued at home, the various theories unfold as testing progresses, testing includes various sensor readings as well as the impact of an in-line block heater on the engine coolant temperature prior to starting the unit, and the ultimate conclusion that both high voltage, throttle application and coolant heating is required with extended cranking time to get the unit to start.

Cheers,

YK

 

[RSV]

WOW, that sucks! Worst thing is to not be able to fully rely on it again, I sure wouldn't. I hope Yamaha (Arctic Cat) can find a fix for you while it's still winter. But I guess it'll be autumn before they will release any fix for this. Makes you wonder where they have been testing these sleds??? And why give up on their own injectionsystem? Why mess with a thing that works?

You are lucky that have Yamaha Canda listening atleast, and I hope for the best for you...

 

[corvette327]

You would think that between Cat and Yamaha they would have performed instrumented testing in an environmental chamber.
This must have been done to design the fuel enrichment required for low temp starting.
This testing would have also validated the cold battery capacity for the application.
Perhaps the design goal never included starting at these temperatures?

 

[4strokeluvr111]

I get cold just watching this video!

 

[Dogan]

I'm no combustion scientist but here's a theory to think about.

I believe that greater amounts of fuel are required to start an engine as it gets colder....i.e. more cold dictates more fuel. With that said and from the circumstances described in the video, the block heater is creating enough heat in the engine compartment to increase the temperature sensed by the intake air sensor. Assuming the fuel map programmer took all of this into account, the engine computer's code thinks it's warm outside (obviously a lot warmer than it really is) and cuts way back on the fuel being delivered for the cold start. The end result is not nearly enough fuel being delivered to start the engine in the extreme cold temperature. This theory would be consistent with the sled starting without being plugged in at -40ish. There looks to be a battery issue as well but this theory might explain a little on the fuel side of things.

 

[SRXSRULE2]

I'm no combustion scientist but here's a theory to think about.

I believe that greater amounts of fuel are required to start an engine as it gets colder....i.e. more cold dictates more fuel. With that said and from the circumstances described in the video, the block heater is creating enough heat in the engine compartment to increase the temperature sensed by the intake air sensor. Assuming the fuel map programmer did his job, the engine computer thinks it's warm outside (obviously a lot warmer than it really is) and cuts way back on the fuel being delivered for the cold start. The end result is not nearly enough fuel being delivered to start the engine in the extreme cold temperature. This theory would be consistent with the sled starting without being plugged in at -40ish. There looks to be a battery issue as well but this theory might explain a little on the fuel side of things.

I totally agree with that, colder denser air is definitely more oxygen rich and will need more fuel to support combustion. If the pump and injectors are the same on the nytro, I'd have to rule out a fuel delivery issue and pretty well blame fuel mapping. A small change to the fuel map tables for the cold start temperature range is an easy test, heck you could do such a thing with a power commander or equivalent in minutes. If it is an electronically erasable programmed computer, flashing it shouldn't be an issue. Wouldn't have to change the rest of the map (even though I think it needs work after riding one myself) you're not going to be riding it until it warms up anyway.

Other thing I ask, what is the need for a tail light to be on unless the sled is running? Low amperage draw LED, but LED's suck up a lot of voltage to turn on... no need for that. Most cars all loads are shut off during cranking, including interior lights and such.

Other morning on our trip, dads viper started up, warmed up and shut it off. Went to go restart, crank no start. Flashed codes for forward relay, O2 sensor and something else. Went for breakfast, came back and it started. Never did a thing to it. Another day during a hot soak start, sled started but only idled at 800 rpms, was searching for an idle. Off idle was fine, rode it for a few minutes, idle was still low. Turned it off, fired it back up right away and it was fine. My nytro would start and stall but restart in these frigid conditions, I thought that was acceptable. This is not. Not pointing fingers but Yamaha needs to figure this out.

 

[devinzz1]

The 15 models have different mapping according to the listed features on yamahas site

 

[SRXSRULE2]

Well if that is true, they should make the 14's right for all the guinea pigs that spent their money for this year.

 

[cannondale27]

It is nothing more than a lack of both voltage and amperage causing your sled not to start. If any fuel injected vehicle drops below 11.5 v while cranking the fuel pump will not deliver enough pressure to match the mapping that was designed to start it correctly. All mapping assumes a constant fuel pressure. I suspect when you open the throttle you are in effect compensating for that lack of fuel. From your load test it looks like your battery passed. If so you need to find where the voltage drop is occurring and the first place I would look is the cables from the battery. I bet with bigger cables or double cables and a ground right at starter it will start. A better bigger battery would also help but not solve the real issue since this size battery has worked in the past.

 

[Yellowknife]

WOW, that sucks! Worst thing is to not be able to fully rely on it again, I sure wouldn't. I hope Yamaha (Arctic Cat) can find a fix for you while it's still winter. But I guess it'll be autumn before they will release any fix for this. Makes you wonder where they have been testing these sleds??? And why give up on their own injectionsystem? Why mess with a thing that works?

You are lucky that have Yamaha Canda listening atleast, and I hope for the best for you...

We're experimenting outside the box right now... will make for some good episodes to come. I agree on the testing front. I'd like answers to that even if I can't share them publicly. Regarding the injection system, I'm sure there's reasoning Arctic Cat wanted their own system in the fuel mapping process and that it was part of the agreement to allow Yamaha to use the chassis. (just guessing)

You're right though, I'm lucky to have Yamaha Canada backing me up providing me options. Stay tuned on those.

You would think that between Cat and Yamaha they would have performed instrumented testing in an environmental chamber.
This must have been done to design the fuel enrichment required for low temp starting.
This testing would have also validated the cold battery capacity for the application.
Perhaps the design goal never included starting at these temperatures?

Arctic Cat, despite its name, doesn't appear to test anything in the cold. That's my experience anyway.

I get cold just watching this video!

LOL it makes you grow an extra layer of skin...

I'm no combustion scientist but here's a theory to think about.

I believe that greater amounts of fuel are required to start an engine as it gets colder....i.e. more cold dictates more fuel. With that said and from the circumstances described in the video, the block heater is creating enough heat in the engine compartment to increase the temperature sensed by the intake air sensor. Assuming the fuel map programmer took all of this into account, the engine computer's code thinks it's warm outside (obviously a lot warmer than it really is) and cuts way back on the fuel being delivered for the cold start. The end result is not nearly enough fuel being delivered to start the engine in the extreme cold temperature. This theory would be consistent with the sled starting without being plugged in at -40ish. There looks to be a battery issue as well but this theory might explain a little on the fuel side of things.

Colder = more fuel needed, agreed. You could be very right on the block heater situation - however, when the sled isn't plugged in and the air intake sensor is reading the same as the actual outside air, the sled still won't start, even with an unlimited supply of cranking power UNTIL I start applying a little bit of throttle. My question, what's happening inside the injection system when I apply throttle on cold start ups? Is it dumping more fuel in?? I don't know and Yamaha doesn't have that answer yet either...

I'm no combustion scientist but here's a theory to think about.

I believe that greater amounts of fuel are required to start an engine as it gets colder....i.e. more cold dictates more fuel. With that said and from the circumstances described in the video, the block heater is creating enough heat in the engine compartment to increase the temperature sensed by the intake air sensor. Assuming the fuel map programmer did his job, the engine computer thinks it's warm outside (obviously a lot warmer than it really is) and cuts way back on the fuel being delivered for the cold start. The end result is not nearly enough fuel being delivered to start the engine in the extreme cold temperature. This theory would be consistent with the sled starting without being plugged in at -40ish. There looks to be a battery issue as well but this theory might explain a little on the fuel side of things.

I totally agree with that, colder denser air is definitely more oxygen rich and will need more fuel to support combustion. If the pump and injectors are the same on the nytro, I'd have to rule out a fuel delivery issue and pretty well blame fuel mapping. A small change to the fuel map tables for the cold start temperature range is an easy test, heck you could do such a thing with a power commander or equivalent in minutes. If it is an electronically erasable programmed computer, flashing it shouldn't be an issue. Wouldn't have to change the rest of the map (even though I think it needs work after riding one myself) you're not going to be riding it until it warms up anyway.

Other thing I ask, what is the need for a tail light to be on unless the sled is running? Low amperage draw LED, but LED's suck up a lot of voltage to turn on... no need for that. Most cars all loads are shut off during cranking, including interior lights and such.

Other morning on our trip, dads viper started up, warmed up and shut it off. Went to go restart, crank no start. Flashed codes for forward relay, O2 sensor and something else. Went for breakfast, came back and it started. Never did a thing to it. Another day during a hot soak start, sled started but only idled at 800 rpms, was searching for an idle. Off idle was fine, rode it for a few minutes, idle was still low. Turned it off, fired it back up right away and it was fine. My nytro would start and stall but restart in these frigid conditions, I thought that was acceptable. This is not. Not pointing fingers but Yamaha needs to figure this out.

Here's hoping it gets figured out soon...

The 15 models have different mapping according to the listed features on yamahas site

Can you link me to that? I am missing it in my searches... Although I have reason to believe you're correct.

Well if that is true, they should make the 14's right for all the guinea pigs that spent their money for this year.

Agreed - if there's a fix, they need to step on the gas and get it out to us all - of coarse nothing is ever that simple behind the scenes.

It is nothing more than a lack of both voltage and amperage causing your sled not to start. If any fuel injected vehicle drops below 11.5 v while cranking the fuel pump will not deliver enough pressure to match the mapping that was designed to start it correctly. All mapping assumes a constant fuel pressure. I suspect when you open the throttle you are in effect compensating for that lack of fuel. From your load test it looks like your battery passed. If so you need to find where the voltage drop is occurring and the first place I would look is the cables from the battery. I bet with bigger cables or double cables and a ground right at starter it will start. A better bigger battery would also help but not solve the real issue since this size battery has worked in the past.

If it was just voltage, why won't the sled start without throttle when I supply endless power to it? I agree about the minimum voltage part though - but I've eliminated that side of it in further testing. Also we testing constant fuel pressure and it is steady at 40 psi.

Thanks for the feedback/responses guys. This brings me to the next episode...

2014 Snowmobile Season: Episode Eight: 3 Dead Sleds HD (720p)

Video Description: More testing/troubleshooting with the Viper, leaving it behind and trying to fire up the 2009 Nytro XTX for the first time in a while, discovering something wrong with the XTX that was showing signs of failing at the end of last season, leaving the XTX behind and trying to start the 2008 Nytro MTX to discover an issue with it, repairing that issue and heading out for a ride on it, having another problem with it making it unusable resulting in 3 dead sleds, repairing the MTX for the second time in one night but having issues with the backup/replacement part, testing out the repair, packing up and heading out to Blachford Lake Lodge to deliver a Skandic, the ride out to the lodge, arriving at the lodge, breaking trail from Blachford down to Great Slave Lake during a nice sunset, riding along the cliffs and pressure ridges of Blanchette Island, a new issue with the Nytro MTX, showing the inside of our cabin at the lodge, the ride back to the truck, cutting wood to have a fire at the parking lot, trying to avoid getting stuck with the boggan on the ice, and the debrief after getting the truck started.

Cheers,

YK

 

[RSV]

LOL! You are really on a roll now. When it rains it pours...

I think the Viper just needs the Bearcat-garage! That was EPIC!!!

 

[stomper]

Not having much luck with the sleds this year, are you. Damn good thing you are so good natured, I would have torched something by now. I can't wait till you get all this mechanical stuff figured out because I sure do miss your adventure videos. LOL. Good luck with the sleds

 

[MADDOG24]

When starting the Viper below zero ( until they re flash the ECU) cycle the key 3 times letting it prime , then start.

 

[Shattered]

Allen, how did your trip to Whitehorse go? You said that you were able to find a sled. What did you end up riding? How was the snow?

I don't know when you went, but here in Juneau it got real warm in January and we lost a lot of snow. Then it got cold again and the wet snow refroze and was like concrete. Traction was terrible.

Whitehorse is on the other side of a mountain range from us and the conditions are often very different even though it's nearby. It tends to stay a lot colder on the other side of the mountains.

 

[Yellowknife]

LOL! You are really on a roll now. When it rains it pours...

I think the Viper just needs the Bearcat-garage! That was EPIC!!!

LOL NO BEARCAT GARAGE!!! AHAHAHAHAHA!

Not having much luck with the sleds this year, are you. Damn good thing you are so good natured, I would have torched something by now. I can't wait till you get all this mechanical stuff figured out because I sure do miss your adventure videos. LOL. Good luck with the sleds

Yeah, I hear you on the torching. You have no idea how right you are...stay tuned!!!!! Torching and adventure are about to go together...

When starting the Viper below zero ( until they re flash the ECU) cycle the key 3 times letting it prime , then start.

Will do. I've seen slightly better luck NOT letting the fuel pump finish priming before I turn the key to start it...

Allen, how did your trip to Whitehorse go? You said that you were able to find a sled. What did you end up riding? How was the snow?

I don't know when you went, but here in Juneau it got real warm in January and we lost a lot of snow. Then it got cold again and the wet snow refroze and was like concrete. Traction was terrible.

Whitehorse is on the other side of a mountain range from us and the conditions are often very different even though it's nearby. It tends to stay a lot colder on the other side of the mountains.

Whitehorse was... well... it's coming in a future episode. I can't blow the surprise... lol

That said, the next video is out (was out last weekend on the youtube page but I'm late posting the link)

2014 Snowmobile Season: Episode Nine HD (720p)

Video Description: Following up on the XTX starter repair with visuals of the engine pulled from the sled, more Viper troubleshooting, rescuing Margaret within city limits, heading out to Hearne Lake Lodge, and shock troubles on the Viper.

Cheers,
YK